Matt's Mormon Thread

[Eran of Arcadia]

Not necessarily. I'm not exactly sure what you mean by hierarchical polytheism, but I have the Greco-roman model in mind, where Zeus is head god, but the other gods sometimes have their own ideas and conflicts. Whereas in henotheism any other gods are obedient to God just as the angels are.

Not that I have a problem with this topic, but I'd also be willing to answer any other questions anyone has.

 

[ironduck]

So, what's with the holy underwear, batman?

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

The proper term is 'garments' or 'temple garments'. They are, basically, used as a symbol of the promises made during temple ceremonies. In some way they are like the religious clothing worn by priests, or the shawls worn by ancient Jews. The main differences are that they are worn under clothing, and that they are too considered too sacred to discuss in detail outside of the temple. (We say 'sacred' instead of 'secret' because we don't even talk about the subject with those who also have them, except in the temple). The idea is not that they in themselves have any sort of power, but that they serve as a symbol and reminder of promises that we make in the temple. In purely physical terms, they are not much different from the underwear that most people wear.

 

[El_Machinae]

So we'd have to ask an ex-Mormon to get the full details?

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

The problem with that is that the ex-Mormons in question are breaking promises that they made previously not to discuss them. It has been done of course, but it is a major source of controversy and conflict between the church and those who left it. Also, especially given that many of those hostile to the church use garments as a source of parody, you can't be sure that the details that an ex-Mormon give you are reliable. The wikipedia article for 'temple garment' actually gives more detail.

 

[El_Machinae]

Yeah, for the same reason I doubt the sites 'exposing' Scientology. I get it.

 

[ironduck]

There are actual court documents containing large portions of the beliefs of Scientology, you don't have to 'believe' any websites. Scientology has been exposed on many occasions and the evidence is there for anyone to see. Check out the Fishman affidavits - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fishman_affidavit

 

[Homie]

That's why I appeal to everyone to apply logical and accepted morals when making decisions

But if you're insane logic and morals fly out the window anyway. You people say that if God Himself tells me to do something, how do I know its Him and not just my insanity. Do you know how silly that sounds? You are absolutely right of course, but if I was insane it wouldn't matter, because I'd do insane things for no reason.

The muslims that are blowing up people left and right on suicide missions are convinced that god wants them to do so.

But not because God told them, they did it because other muslims told them, and because it is not against their idea of what God would want them to do, not against their morals. Well, it is against my morals and what I think God would want, so therefore I wouldn't do it if e.g. my pastor told me to.

God wouldn't tell people to do these things, so why are we even discussing this? Is it really a sincere question? This is the last I'll say about this topic, which would rightly be named "The most hypotetical question in the world".

 

[Sophie 378]

But not because God told them, they did it because other muslims told them, and because it is not against their idea of what God would want them to do, not against their morals.

How do you know? They may well believe that they are doing something directly commanded by God/Allah.

 

[Homie]

Btw, angels are in no way God. They are not above us either, as has been suggested by Che Guava.

Eran, if it is forbidden to discuss the temple undergarments, have you not just broken the church rules?

Also, where do mormons get this idea that we can be exalted to Gods? I have seen nothing in the Bible to indicate that. Is it perhaps in the Book of Mormon?

 

[Homie]

How do you know? They may well believe that they are doing something directly commanded by God/Allah

Are you saying that you think the suicide bombers believe they have seen God tell them to do it?

 

[El_Machinae]

But if you're insane logic and morals fly out the window.

Actually, there are hundreds of insanities, some not so obvious. And most insanities mimic 'normal' quirks, but just exemplify them.

I'm just saying that I've seen fervent faith in God that was caused by brain damage. The man's moral compass wasn't skewed (he knew he was hurting people, and he felt bad), but the voice from "On High" took precedence. Because you don't ignore an order from THE GOD ALMIGHTY

Are you saying that you think the suicide bombers believe they have seen God tell them to do it?

Yeah, but only because I can't imagining someone killing themselves, except for a (self-perceived) really good reason.

 

[Sophie 378]

Are you saying that you think the suicide bombers believe they have seen God tell them to do it?

I don't know. I cannot rule it out any more than I can rule out that they are innocent dupes of some evil Taliban guy.

 

[ironduck]

But if you're insane logic and morals fly out the window anyway. You people say that if God Himself tells me to do something, how do I know its Him and not just my insanity. Do you know how silly that sounds? You are absolutely right of course, but if I was insane it wouldn't matter, because I'd do insane things for no reason.

It's not really that silly. Let's say I hear what I perceive is god and he tells me to go out and kill a lot of people. Even if I was sure it was god, it would be against my morals and I would not obey that command. Now, I may well be having illusions about it being god, but if my moral prevents me from obeying my 'certainty' that god tells me to do so, then many innocent lives were spared. If you, on the other hand, had such illusions and really thought it was god - you were absolutely certain it was god telling you to do so - then you would do it (according to yourself).

God wouldn't tell people to do these things, so why are we even discussing this? Is it really a sincere question? This is the last I'll say about this topic, which would rightly be named "The most hypotetical question in the world".

I brought this discussion up because Eran said he would do as god commanded him to do. That made me think of the story of Abraham being ordered by god to sacrifice his son Isaac. So I asked if other christians here would sacrifice/murder their family members if god told them to. I don't see it as that hypothetical at all, it's an important story in the bible.

 

[Homie]

OK, now I know you people aren't asking sincere questions, but ridicule is your purpose. Because we well know that the suicide bombers have not claimed that they actually saw God and that He told them to do it. We all know they believe it is His will, but that they got this notion from people. Why would they never say that God Himself actually revealed Himself to them if He actually did? Sure they would say so in their videos. For it is custom for the Palestinian suicide bombers atleast to make a video before their bombing which is after the bombing being shown to families and often broadcasted. Never do they say that God revealed Himself to them.

 

[Sophie 378]

Well, I'm glad you know so much about me and the way I think, having read a few of my posts. Presumably you have an equally astonishing insight into the mentalities of other people you've never met and only hear about on the news. What I meant was, you interpret God in one way and seem 100% certain that this is "the" correct interpretation, and that theirs is wrong. It is perfectly plausible that they believe the same of you, while believing different things about God. How can anyone know for definite, let alone prove which is the right interpretation of God?

 

[El_Machinae]

Homie: our big fear is that (according to our perceptions) the Christian God isn't all that ethical, or predictable. This means that Christians who say "yeah, I'd kill for God" are just as scary as any other group of people. Because we cannot tell your faith from the suicide bomber's faith, and we don't know if you'll use reasonable morality to reign in your actions. So, we'd really like to read "no way, I know that God is about love, and love only, and there is no way that a harmful act can ever be done with love in mind".

 

[Homie]

What I meant was, you interpret God in one way and seem 100% certain that this is "the" correct interpretation, and that theirs is wrong. It is perfectly plausible that they believe the same of you, while believing different things about God. How can anyone know for definite, let alone prove which is the right interpretation of God?

Yes, and.... What does this really have to do with anything? We're not talking about faith or interpretations, we're talking about God showing up and telling someone to kill someone else. I ask you again that which you promptly avoided:

We all know they believe it is His will, but that they got this notion from people. Why would they never say that God Himself actually revealed Himself to them if He actually did?

When you answer this Sophie, we'll talk.

Because we cannot tell your faith from the suicide bomber's faith

Really? How many Christian motivated suicide bombers have you seen lately? That's the differance! Because God doesn't tell us to do it, and God doesn't tell them to do it, but they do it anyway because they believe it is God's way. Why do they believe that? Because that is what they have been taught.

 

[El_Machinae]

What faith has bombed the most abortion clinics in the States?

edit: It read like a counter-point when I wrote it. Now it looks like a cheap shot. Oops

 

[Homie]

OK, I have unsubscribed from this thread. Take your unfounded hate elsewhere.