Matt's Mormon Thread

[ironduck]

What? Everyone knows salted crackers are the only true gods!

 

[El_Machinae]

Once we discover fusion and FTL travel, we have a virually unlimited supply of raw materials to make crackers with. Once again, progress is a solution to prevent a holy war.

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

Salted crackers are all right, but I much prefer cheezits. Making you all infidels worthy of death.

On a side note, it is just a little weird arguing the definition of polytheism vs. monotheism with an atheist, but that's the internet for you.

By the way, as far as we see it, yes, what you do is far more important than what you believe - those whose belief in salted crackers lead them to build Mexican hospitals have an advantage over those whose belief in the One True God lead them to burn libraries. Nonetheless, we also believe that all will have to accept the truth at some point, and we see ourselves as helping them to do that, as well as to understand the importance of things like faith and repentance.

 

[Taliesin]

those whose belief in salted crackers lead them to build Mexican hospitals have an advantage over those whose belief in the One True God lead them to burn libraries.

Take that, Calvin! (I wholeheartedly agree, by the way. Silly Calvinists.)

 

[El_Machinae]

I would agree that most of the hostility I see towards religions is because they're judged as being hypocrites. I'm not saying that religious people are hypocrites, but that some people disparage (for example) the Catholic church due to the Inquistion.

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

It's true that some religions have more 'baggage' than others. It's not just the Catholics, other religions have killed nonbelievers. However, most Catholics I know are influenced more by the 'do good works' aspect of their religion than the occasional unfortunate tendency to torture Jews and heretics. Just like every Muslim I've met follows 'jihad' in its true sense of struggle against personal sin than its lesser meaning of 'spread Islam, by force if necessary'.

 

[ironduck]

On a side note, it is just a little weird arguing the definition of polytheism vs. monotheism with an atheist, but that's the internet for you.

Who said I was atheist?

And the definitions are in the dictionary, it's hardly 'arguing'.

Webster:

Etymology: French polytheisme, from Late Greek polytheos polytheistic, from Greek, of many gods, from poly- + theos god
: belief in or worship of more than one god

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

Sorry, that's the impression I got from the fact that you seemed to be arguing against the existance of God. If you're not, what are you, if you don't mind me asking?

Also, it is still a matter of debate if we are polytheists. After all, the dictionary doesn't give an exact definition of 'God', and when Mormons use the term it can mean at least 4 different things. So whether we are polytheists or not may be a matter of semantics rather than anything else.

 

[ironduck]

I thought the definition you gave before about people being able to become gods 'like god' (even though the god you worship is the supreme master) actually meant what it said.. it's certainly very different from what I've ever heard of with mainstream protestants and catholics.

Since I don't have an issue with mono- vs polytheism I may not be the worst person to discuss it with. People who are convinced one or the other is true may be more biased.

And why can't a religious person argue against the existence of god? It's called rational thought. Anyway, I'm probably easiest labeled an agnostic if you need a label.

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

Actually, although most mainstream Christian religions won't talk about 'becoming gods' the way we do, there is some Biblical support for the idea, and authors such as C.S. Lewis talked about it much as we do. We can become gods like God, but still lower, in the sense that we can't do so without Him.

I know religious people can argue against the existence of God - I actually could come up with better arguments against Mormonism than most of the sincere ones I've heard - but I just got the impression you really don't believe in God. Sorry for making an assumption.

And I'm not saying that there is anything wrong with debating mono vs. poly with you, just that it struck me as a little surreal.

 

[El_Machinae]

I actually could come up with better arguments against Mormonism than most of the sincere ones I've heard.

Have you rationalized solutions to these arguments as well?

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

Yes I have, otherwise I would have a real problem with Mormonism. The basic argument used against the church, which usually comes from fundamentalist Christians (our biggest detractors) is, "Mormons believe X where the Bible clearly states Y", when we don't believe X, not really, and Y is only one particular interpretation (and maybe a strained one at that) of what the Bible says. Like I said, if I were to argue against the church, I could use more sophisticated arguments, although I don't really believe them at all. Not that I've ever done so.

 

[El_Machinae]

I don't really like using sophisticated arguments that I don't believe in. It seems to be a little bit like lying. On the other hand, it could give a believer some practice in defending their faith. As long as you don't 'convert' them away from their faith with a false argument ... that would be immoral.

 

[The Last Conformist]

Re: poly-/monotheist, Eran's description sounds like henotheism - the acceptance of the existance of multiple gods, but worship of only one.

(Large chunks of the OT are written from what appears to be a henotheistic viewpoint, but that's for another thread.)

 

[Homie]

And as has been stated time and again by christians, the devil can throw all kinds of tricks - people may well think god is commanding them to do it when it is in fact the devil.

Iron, did you forget what I said earlier in the thread?

First, I'd question if that was really God, and not the devil.
But if there was no doubt that it was God, the right thing to do would be to obey

Have you ever thought about that the real test is whether you stand up to your own moral standards rather than obey someone else's?

Its not about obeying someone else, its about obeying GOD THE ALMIGHTY! None of us would do so blindly, none of us would do without question. We are talking God having to show up himself, and there being no doubt in my mind.

And as regards to insane people, some may think an alien told them to kill someone, some may think that their deceased grandfather told them to kill someone, and some may think God told them. They're insane, so what has that got to do with anything.

I'll have to go now, I'll answer the other posts later or tomorrow. And please lay off the tone everyone, we don't want this to be a match with "opponents"

 

[El_Machinae]

and there being no doubt in my mind.

Removing doubt from your mind can be as simple as giving you brain damage. That's the scary thing, for us. And it doesn't have to be 'obvious' brain damage, it could be caused by a micro-stroke. The patient I dealt with got his symptoms from drinking too much water, and was rather reasonable and clever before that.

That's why I appeal to everyone to apply logical and accepted morals when making decisions, because belief in higher calling could just be a tumor.

 

[ironduck]

Its not about obeying someone else, its about obeying GOD THE ALMIGHTY! None of us would do so blindly, none of us would do without question. We are talking God having to show up himself, and there being no doubt in my mind.

Obeying god is still obeying someone else. And you said you will obey him without question as long as you are convinced that it's god. My point is you cannot be sure that it's god, you may just think that it is. Secondly, even if you know for a fact that it's god, how do you know that this god has good intentions?

We're not talking about your own faith for your own purpose here, we are talking about wiping out humanity on your 'faith'. That's just not good enough for me, and I don't think you would feel so comfortable about it either if someone said they were doing it because the god of their particular religion told them to.

The muslims that are blowing up people left and right on suicide missions are convinced that god wants them to do so.

 

[ironduck]

Re: poly-/monotheist, Eran's description sounds like henotheism - the acceptance of the existance of multiple gods, but worship of only one.

(Large chunks of the OT are written from what appears to be a henotheistic viewpoint, but that's for another thread.)

I hadn't heard of henotheism before!

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

Henotheism is the belief that there are multiple gods or divine beings, but there is One Supreme God or divine being whom all others follow. Unlike polytheism, in which the gods may conflict or all may be the subject of worship, in henotheism all other gods are subservient to the One. I've heard that the ancient Hebrews were somewhat henotheistic. I've actually also heard Mormonism described as henotheistic; I think it does actually apply pretty well. Yes, we believe there are other divine beings besides God the Father but we worship only Him.

 

[Sophie 378]

Would that not just be a sort of hierarchical polytheism?