Matt's Mormon Thread

[ironduck]

I'm not going to go deeply into why sexuality is a crucial part of being human for most people and why discovering and learning about one's own sexuality plays a major role in making a person feel complete. It's a topic that enough people should be able to tell you about should you wish to learn about it; it's really basic knowledge for anyone looking into human psychology.

One thing that is apparently not obvious to you is that even if you disregard the entire sexual identity issue sex requires practice and knowledge. Women who are not familiar with masturbation have a much harder time climaxing than those who do. People who are not familiar with their own bodies have a much harder time communicating their needs to their partners than people who are well aware of their own needs. In brief, sex life is significantly improved when you and your partner are intimately familiar with your own sexuality and able to express it. And since the sex life is directly related to the emotional well-being of a couple it plays a major part in the happiness in the relationship.

That was to put it very briefly; I've not even touched on all the trauma that's related to people feeling sinful if they are not allowed to explore their own sexuality - which is really the biggest problem of them all when it comes to making masturbation a no-no.

As for objectifying women, where did that come from? You brought up pornography, not I. Masturbation is not pornography. And for the record, pornography is merely playing out sexual fantasies in visual form. Erotic literature and non-photographic art that is all strictly fiction is nothing but an extension of the sexual imagery in a person's mind. It's a natural, unharmful thing.

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

and, let's just say, the more you talk, the more it becomes obvious you are "bending" the truth. There are little things that indicate you most certainly have before.

Huh? Could you cite examples?

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

I'm not going to go deeply into why sexuality is a crucial part of being human for most people and why discovering and learning about one's own sexuality plays a major role in making a person feel complete. It's a topic that enough people should be able to tell you about should you wish to learn about it; it's really basic knowledge for anyone looking into human psychology.

One thing that is apparently not obvious to you is that even if you disregard the entire sexual identity issue sex requires practice and knowledge. Women who are not familiar with masturbation have a much harder time climaxing than those who do. People who are not familiar with their own bodies have a much harder time communicating their needs to their partners than people who are well aware of their own needs. In brief, sex life is significantly improved when you and your partner are intimately familiar with your own sexuality and able to express it. And since the sex life is directly related to the emotional well-being of a couple it plays a major part in the happiness in the relationship.

That was to put it very briefly; I've not even touched on all the trauma that's related to people feeling sinful if they are not allowed to explore their own sexuality - which is really the biggest problem of them all when it comes to making masturbation a no-no.

As for objectifying women, where did that come from? You brought up pornography, not I. Masturbation is not pornography. And for the record, pornography is merely playing out sexual fantasies in visual form. Erotic literature and non-photographic art that is all strictly fiction is nothing but an extension of the sexual imagery in a person's mind. It's a natural, unharmful thing.

No, I really do think that it is possible to have a satisfying sex life without having masturbated. Sure, things will be a little awkward at first, but so? Everyone is bad at sex their first few times and I don't see how it's any worse if it's with your spouse. I'm not traumatized by not 'exploring my sexuality' and that's because I, myself, have made the choice not to engage in a certain behavior.

 

[ironduck]

What we have here, I think, is a bunch of people who haven't gone more than a week at most, since puberty, without masturbating, who are telling at least one person who has never masturbated that not masturbating is unhealthy.

Read my post. You don't have to take my word for it. Take the last 30 years of studies on human sexuality and you may find out what the big hulabaloo is about.

Or alternatively you could try talking to women who have had some sexual experiences and try to connect the dots.

 

[ironduck]

No, I really do think that it is possible to have a satisfying sex life without having masturbated. Sure, things will be a little awkward at first, but so? Everyone is bad at sex their first few times and I don't see how it's any worse if it's with your spouse. I'm not traumatized by not 'exploring my sexuality' and that's because I, myself, have made the choice not to engage in a certain behavior.

Women almost always need to explore their sexuality alone in order to become familiar with their bodies. This means masturbation. So are they allowed to masturbate alone when they're married?

I can assure you that the awkwardness of sex is indefinitely greater if you have no idea of your own body and the same goes for your partner.

I'm not going further with this, I'm sad to hear that mormons are so sexually repressed, but it's just one more problem to fight.

 

[Neomega]

Huh? Could you cite examples?

Well the wet-dream thing is a dead giveaway.

also the "going one week without masturbating"
As a human, I know that until you have masturbated, you have no idea how long is a long time to go without. Indeed, before I had my first orgasm, I thought people had sex once every nine months at most. (between kids)

It is obvious you actually know about how long you can go, which of course, every boy who felt dirty about masturbating would try and test his resolve, it was the topic of a very interesting and funny Seinfeld episode.

You cannot know what an Orgasm feels like from a wet dream, that is like saying you know what it feels like to eat chocolate from a dream you had about a mousse.

But there is one other thing that gave you away... you mentioned you are male.

The mormon churches attitude toward sex, is honestly, very much repugnant. I am certainly glad I am not involved in the mormon faith. I could not take it's sex-hate.

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

I'm afraid I am just going to be unable to agree with you. I know people who haven't masturbated and have perfectly good sex lives; I have never masturbated and I don't have any problems with my sexuality.

Out of curiosity, do these studies actually say that not masturbating is bad, or merely that masturbating is not bad? Could you direct me to any such studies so that I can see what they (and by extension, you) are saying?

 

[downtown]

i dont think its safe to say that Married Mormons dont have good sex lives. If they didnt, why do you think so many of them pop out so many kids? If anything, i guess you could say they wouldnt know any better, since most were virgins when they got married.

The following is strictly my own opinion, and not endorced by the Mormon church

I personally dont see what the big deal is about Masturbation. I'll admit it. I've masturbated before (although i hadnt before i turned 18, and was a normal, healthy kid, and with a girlfriend to boot). I mean, sure, its feels good, but i dont think i would have gone "crazy" if i hadnt done it.

The church does have pretty tough standards on sexual conduct before marraige, and i am 100% that most people dont follow them 100%. I suspect that they were placed there, because of a lot of kids werent/arent able to make mature choices themselves, and without stricter guidelines, would end up in a lot of trouble. Maybe for some people, the proverbial "line" which shouldnt be crossed if more clear.
If I recall correctly, the "strength of youth" guide said to avoid "passionate kissing". really now. For some people, i dont know, maybe french kissing would be the start of something that gets them in trouble, i dunno. It wasnt for me. I suspect that masturbation is prohibited for a similar reason.
i avoid doing it now anyways. partly because the church says so, and partly because its messy


wow. i think i shared a little too much for an internet forum.

 

[Neomega]

No, I really do think that it is possible to have a satisfying sex life without having masturbated. Sure, things will be a little awkward at first, but so? Everyone is bad at sex their first few times and I don't see how it's any worse if it's with your spouse. I'm not traumatized by not 'exploring my sexuality' and that's because I, myself, have made the choice not to engage in a certain behavior.

....and what about the woman? How is she going to climax... and you still have dodged my question, so I'll add more to it.. is cunnilingus, or fellatio allowed? Is masturbating in front of your wife allowed, what about behind a closed door in the master bathroom?


--you are not going ot go crazy without sexual release... unless it is over a long period of time.... since crazy is actually relative, let's just say, you will not be adjusted to society well.

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

You haven't been paying any attention, Neomega. When you said that I must masturbate because I am male, you seem to be assuming that all males masturbate. This is the 'true scotsman' fallacy I mentioned earlier; but I don't masturbate!!

By the way, that 'one week' figure I made up because I have no actual experience in it. And I have had orgasms while awake, but it is not masturbating because I woke up during a wet dream. There. End of story.

You and ironduck can think that we Mormons hate sexuality if you want; certainly nothing I, an actual Mormon, can say will convince you otherwise. But I can assure everyone that just because one doesn't masturbate doesn't mean they hate sex.

 

[downtown]

oh, and from what i've read, "not masturbating" isnt *bad* per say, although i guess you're a lot more likely to suck the first few times you have sex. If one does masturbate, one is less likely to develop prostate cancer, or get those pesky wet dreams

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

And specific rules on what sexual acts between married couples are allowed or not allowed are not laid (hah!) out clearly. It is left to the judgment of the couple whether oral sex or mutual masturbation is acceptable; I wasn't dodging the question, it is individual choice. And I could very possibly be wrong, but I think vaginal intercourse may lead to a female orgasm. Any scientist out there correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[Neomega]

i dont think its safe to say that Married Mormons dont have good sex lives. If they didnt, why do you think so many of them pop out so many kids? If anything, i guess you could say they wouldnt know any better, since most were virgins when they got married.

Everyone's sex life is good in the beginning. As I have pointed to earlier, mormons do have a higher divorce rate than catholics or athiests, this does not prove mormon attitude towards sex cause the divorces, but it certainly proves the attitudes do not have any secret powers in them that keep marriages stronger or healthier than non-mormon marriages, where people have masturbated their young adult lives.

I certainly hope you find a mormon girl, that has broken churhc rules, (I'd be willing to bet 33% of them have, because I'll be damned if they aren't human also) that knows what an orgasm feels like, and knows what she wants in bed, if you do... hang on to her... Cuz she might be rare in your church, and a lot more fun than a prudish mormon by-the-booker.

That's all I am saying. I don't like religions that make enjoying sexuality difficult for women. Society is hard enough on them in general as it is.

 

[Neomega]

And specific rules on what sexual acts between married couples are allowed or not allowed are not laid (hah!) out clearly. It is left to the judgment of the couple whether oral sex or mutual masturbation is acceptable; I wasn't dodging the question, it is individual choice. And I could very possibly be wrong, but I think vaginal intercourse may lead to a female orgasm. Any scientist out there correct me if I'm wrong.

Not full clitoral orgasm.

Women who have nbot had clitoral orgasms will claim they can have an orgasm by having intercourse alone... however, women who do have clitoral orgasms, most certainly say definitively that you cannot have an orgasm through intercourse alone, at least not a "true" orgasm.

(oh god, I'm gonna get banned)



...and maturbate or no masturbate, everyone sucks their first times, because it is quite awkward to be that close to a different human being.

It also MUST be noticed.... it is far easier to masturbate, then avoid it. I mean c'mon. especially in todays society, where everywhere you look there are scantily clad women. Even if, even if you do not see any of this, there are still stirrings inside which need release!

 

[ironduck]

I'm afraid I am just going to be unable to agree with you. I know people who haven't masturbated and have perfectly good sex lives;

Somehow I doubt that's the case for most of the women if the situation is as you described it. You still didn't answer if they're allowed to masturbate privately once they're married.

Out of curiosity, do these studies actually say that not masturbating is bad, or merely that masturbating is not bad? Could you direct me to any such studies so that I can see what they (and by extension, you) are saying?

The obvious conclusions from the studies on masturbation show things such as those I've mentioned. If people never masturbate they don't explore their own sexuality and the results are worse sex lives and worse relationships. If they already are familiar with their sexuality and bodies people generally don't need to masturbate once they're in a relationship if they have a great sex life with their partner, but that completely varies depending on sexual appetite for once.

For the record, there are studies that show that the quality of sperm is decreased if the man does not ejaculate regularly.

And orgasms have been shown time and again to increase happiness, reduce stress and anxiety, and generally contribute to the well-being of humans. It probably strengthens the immune system to have regular orgasms.

I'm not goint to google studies for you now, but if you really want to know pm me and I'll find you some info. The internet is full of knowledge regarding sexuality; I really don't think you need my help with it, but if you do, just pm me because I'm not particularly interested in pursuing it further here.

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

Is it really true that Mormons have higher divorce rates? I've heard they are about average nationwide, but if you have statistics I would like to see them.

And I don't think I would have a problem marrying a woman who had never masturbated. Like I said, the sex is bound to be a little awkward at first, but that doesn't bother me. We'll figure it out together.

 

[ironduck]

i dont think its safe to say that Married Mormons dont have good sex lives. If they didnt, why do you think so many of them pop out so many kids?

Making many kids has nothing to do with having a good sex life. Anyone can make kids if they have the required physical attributes.

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

And the reason I haven't mentioned masturbation after marriage is that like I said, it is up to the discretion of the couple. A little 'hand-assistance' (dear heavens, I've never sounded so dirty {just kidding}) probably isn't prohibited. I am going without masturbating before marriage and I don't think it is going to ruin me. Think what you want, but I cannot agree with your assertions that not masturbating is bad.

 

[ironduck]

You and ironduck can think that we Mormons hate sexuality if you want; certainly nothing I, an actual Mormon, can say will convince you otherwise. But I can assure everyone that just because one doesn't masturbate doesn't mean they hate sex.

I said mormons are sexually repressed if they follow the rules you laid out, not that they hate sexuality. And I described why banning masturbation causes all sorts of problems, that you interpret that as 'hating sex' says more about your willingness to listen than anything.

 

[ironduck]

And I could very possibly be wrong, but I think vaginal intercourse may lead to a female orgasm. Any scientist out there correct me if I'm wrong.

You won't need a scientist for that, just ask women with experience. Yes, intercourse can lead to orgasm, but women sexuality is more complicated than that. A heck of a lot more.