Matt's Mormon Thread

[Eran of Arcadia]

No, Neomega was talking about us hating sex, he actually used the expression 'sex-hate' I believe. My choosing not to masturbate does not make me sexually repressed and I very highly doubt it is going to make me go insane (or grow hair on my palms, or go blind, or whatever). Now I honestly don't see us finding a common ground on this, but I am not going to condemn anyone else's choices. If you want to masturbate, ok, but I am not being repressed by not doing so.

 

[ironduck]

Not full clitoral orgasm.

Women who have nbot had clitoral orgasms will claim they can have an orgasm by having intercourse alone... however, women who do have clitoral orgasms, most certainly say definitively that you cannot have an orgasm through intercourse alone, at least not a "true" orgasm.

This may be true for the women you have talked to. But women differ greatly in their sexuality. Some women can have an orgasm with just breast stimulation. Some have very specific needs, others can climax easily from a variety of stimulation; sometimes physical stimulation is hardly needed.

What the heck is 'true' orgasm? There's a physiological response that includes contractions in the vagina and firing in the nervepaths; that's the orgasm I'm talking about here. Sure there are different intensities and some state 'kinds', but an orgasm is an orgasm, it's not less true somehow.

 

[Neomega]

Is it really true that Mormons have higher divorce rates? I've heard they are about average nationwide, but if you have statistics I would like to see them.

I posted it about 15 posts ago, but if you want, just google it, you will find plenty of evidence.

And I don't think I would have a problem marrying a woman who had never masturbated. Like I said, the sex is bound to be a little awkward at first, but that doesn't bother me. We'll figure it out together.

Look, forget it, I am not trying to convert you to masturbationism. All I am saying is, from the outside looking in, I say, "no thanks". And I speak of mormonism this way, beacause they are, by far, one of the most intrusive (if they ask you if you have been following your laws of chasitity.... none of your business, buster, I say). There are other worse religions, like the amish, in this regard, but mormons are a large segment of the population where I live.


I mean to me, I would never dream of making my children answer their priest or paster if they have touched themselves. That is really quite abominable to me. I would never dream of telling my kids not to masturbate, because I really hoep they will be allowed to exrpess their love for their partner openly and without guilt.

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

This may be true for the women you have talked to. But women differ greatly in their sexuality. Some women can have an orgasm with just breast stimulation. Some have very specific needs, others can climax easily from a variety of stimulation; sometimes physical stimulation is hardly needed.

What the heck is 'true' orgasm? There's a physiological response that includes contractions in the vagina and firing in the nervepaths; that's the orgasm I'm talking about here. Sure there are different intensities and some state 'kinds', but an orgasm is an orgasm, it's not less true somehow.

. . . Which she can learn about when she is married just as easily as before. Anyways, there will be things she likes that she can't do herself, I'm sure, so masturbation will only teach you so much.

Not to change the subject, but are there any other questions?

 

[ironduck]

No, Neomega was talking about us hating sex, he actually used the expression 'sex-hate' I believe. My choosing not to masturbate does not make me sexually repressed and I very highly doubt it is going to make me go insane (or grow hair on my palms, or go blind, or whatever). Now I honestly don't see us finding a common ground on this, but I am not going to condemn anyone else's choices. If you want to masturbate, ok, but I am not being repressed by not doing so.

You said 'you and Ironduck', please read my posts separately as I do not agree with Neomega on everything, including the assertion that people go mad from not masturbating.

I tried to describe why not learning about one's own sexuality is a big problem in terms of later sex life and relationship. Especially for women, that cannot be emphasized enough. Most men don't have a clue about women sexuality.

I don't think anyone feels repressed until hindsight shows some things, but people who have been told that what they desire to do is wrong usually have quite some inner conflicts.

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

And Neomega, I'm sure you think it is bad to tell a minister about whether you are following a particular sexual morality, but I gather you don't follow a sexual morality that claims that there are possible long-term, even next-life side effects that you can't see but that can come about from breaking them. Well, we do.

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

You said 'you and Ironduck', please read my posts separately as I do not agree with Neomega on everything, including the assertion that people go mad from not masturbating.

I tried to describe why not learning about one's own sexuality is a big problem in terms of later sex life and relationship. Especially for women, that cannot be emphasized enough. Most men don't have a clue about women sexuality.

I don't think anyone feels repressed until hindsight shows some things, but people who have been told that what they desire to do is wrong usually have quite some inner conflicts.

Do these men masturbate?

And part of any system of morality is not doing something even if you desire it. I sometimes desire to steal things but refrain because I think it is wrong. This doesn't mess me up. Now, you obviously disagree that masturbation is wrong, but it doesn't automatically follow that not doing it is harmful.

 

[Neomega]

This may be true for the women you have talked to. But women differ greatly in their sexuality. Some women can have an orgasm with just breast stimulation. Some have very specific needs, others can climax easily from a variety of stimulation; sometimes physical stimulation is hardly needed.

What the heck is 'true' orgasm? There's a physiological response that includes contractions in the vagina and firing in the nervepaths; that's the orgasm I'm talking about here. Sure there are different intensities and some state 'kinds', but an orgasm is an orgasm, it's not less true somehow.

That's true, there are rare cases where men can have orgasm without any stimulation, and thought alone, same with women, but generally, a true orgasm in required by stimulation of the clitoris. there are different intensities, but the most intense is the clitoral, and as I have pointed out, women who experience clitoral orgasms will readily tell you it is preferred.

And I am the one who called it sex-hate, because only people who hate sex would lay down such rules for their followers... and why do they hate sex? because they have been repressed. And the cycle continues.

 

[ironduck]

. . . Which she can learn about when she is married just as easily as before.

If her partner understands that she needs time and space to explore her sexuality, which most men don't understand whatsoever. Women have had a long struggle setting themselves free in this part of the world, in most of the rest of the world they're still terribly oppressed.

It was only recently in the west that women were even acknowledged as sexual beings! Up until then they were not seen as having desires or needs of their own.

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

@Neomega: No, you said that we had 'sex-hate', I replied that we don't actually hate sex, and hating sex is not a necessary prerequisite for discouraging masturbation.

@ironduck: we believe that the enjoyment of the woman is just as important as that of the man, and that both partners need to look out for the other's needs as much as their own.

 

[ironduck]

Do these men masturbate?

And part of any system of morality is not doing something even if you desire it. I sometimes desire to steal things but refrain because I think it is wrong. This doesn't mess me up. Now, you obviously disagree that masturbation is wrong, but it doesn't automatically follow that not doing it is harmful.

Stealing cars isn't a basic instinct. A human's sex drive is. That's the difference.

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

Actually, I think that stealing is a basic human instinct, as is wanting to hurt our enemies. Not cars, specifically, as they are new in the scale of human evolution, but i think every human society and every person who has ever lived has had internal desires to take what is not theirs.

 

[ironduck]

That's true, there are rare cases where men can have orgasm without any stimulation, and thought alone, same with women, but generally, a true orgasm in required by stimulation of the clitoris. there are different intensities, but the most intense is the clitoral, and as I have pointed out, women who experience clitoral orgasms will readily tell you it is preferred.

Clitoral stimulation is wonderful for women - it's the sole purpose of the clitoris, but to distinguish it as a specific 'type' of orgasm is only true for some women. I'm really not going to go further with this only to say that women differ more than I think you realize. I'm a man and sounds like you are too so it's really not for us to make statements here. This discussion should be full of women to put real gravity to the discussion, so I'll let it go here.

And I am the one who called it sex-hate, because only people who hate sex would lay down such rules for their followers... and why do they hate sex? because they have been repressed. And the cycle continues.

I agree with the basic issue, but this doesn't mean that the individual mormon hates sex. The problem is that sex is somehow seen as sinful except for under very specific circumstances which causes the same old irrational restrictions to be repeated ad nauseum.

 

[Neomega]

And Neomega, I'm sure you think it is bad to tell a minister about whether you are following a particular sexual morality, but I gather you don't follow a sexual morality that claims that there are possible long-term, even next-life side effects that you can't see but that can come about from breaking them. Well, we do.

And here is where it gets interesting then isn't it. long-term effects, I have already given evidenc ethat the mormon code of sexual conduct in no way strengthens familial relationships.

Next-life side effects? Well, When you meet someone who has been there, I'd be most interested in meeting him too. And uh, for some reason, I don't see masturbation, in any way effecting th eectoplasm of the afterlife. I think it's a tad more harmless than that.

And I have stated before, it's not the repression of male sexuality I am so concerned about, since that is about impossible, it it the oppression of the female's sexuality that concerns me, and in an institutional manner, nonethless.

To me, it is far more immoral to question a young, unsure lanky kid whether he strokes himself, than to stroke yourself. And the bullet dodge of saying,they ask ahwther you followe dthe bind sof chastity or whtever does not fly. You put the kid in a very hard place, lie about what he has done, or admit to an old man he masturbates. at 13, nobody admits to anyone they masurbate, it's hard enough for soem boys to even admit they have a remote interest in girls, much alone do something so "disguisting".

And my freind was quite clear in what he was being asked. He thought it was funny, he said something like, man that father (something), he is liek obseessed with finding out if I masturbated, he asks every time... "do you... mashterbate?"

 

[Neomega]

I agree with the basic issue, but this doesn't mean that the individual mormon hates sex. The problem is that sex is somehow seen as sinful except for under very specific circumstances which causes the same old irrational restrictions to be repeated ad nauseum.

...and as they get older, their youth and beauty fades, the confusion and envy turns to hostility towards sexuality.

 

[ironduck]

Actually, I think that stealing is a basic human instinct, as is wanting to hurt our enemies. Not cars, specifically, as they are new in the scale of human evolution, but i think every human society and every person who has ever lived has had internal desires to take what is not theirs.

I think it's fairly well established that the basic instincts are food-sex-sleep. Nurture and love and such feelings are fundamental to most people too. Hurting one's enemies really isn't a basic instinct since it requires enemies in the first place which for most people don't exist to any real degree. Stealing rarely has to do with enemies since it's almost always an anonymous act, not targeted at a specific person.

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

You say 'irrational', I say 'commandment from God', let's call the whole thing off?

No, seriously, I can certainly understand where you are coming (hah! again) from, but you don't seem to understand that part of the process of becoming a higher being (the goal, if you will recall, of all earthly life according to Mormonism) may involve not engaging in some activities that are natural to the sort of being we are now. The rules of the church themselves are not to 'hate sex', only describe the sort of circumstance in which it should best be engaged.

The reason your friend was asked is because we believe that to do certain things in the church, one must adhere to certain standards of what we see as purity. Now I was never specifically asked about masturbation; it is possible that it was Neomega's friend that brought that up specifically in the first place. But one either believes in the church or doesn't. If so, there is no problem with admitting that you have masturbated if you intend not to do so; if you don't believe, there is no point in even showing up.

 

[Neomega]

You say 'irrational', I say 'commandment from God', let's call the whole thing off?

No, seriously, I can certainly understand where you are coming (hah! again) from,

Like I said, terrible, usually cheesy, sometimes funny...

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

I think it's fairly well established that the basic instincts are food-sex-sleep. Nurture and love and such feelings are fundamental to most people too. Hurting one's enemies really isn't a basic instinct since it requires enemies in the first place which for most people don't exist to any real degree. Stealing rarely has to do with enemies since it's almost always an anonymous act, not targeted at a specific person.

Yes, those are the basic instincts, but on another level we have instincts to get them even at the expense of others. That is why, from the first bands of hunter-gatherers until now, conflict within and between groups has existed. Morality is an attempt to impose order even at the cost of liliting certain instincts. Otherwise there is no point to it.

 

[ironduck]

I think it makes more sense to look at what we know about the world.

We know that when women are not allowed to explore their bodies they have less satisfying sex lives which also lead to less satisfying relationships. The same goes for men, but it's more obvious with women because they've only recently started to get past millenias of sexual oppresion.

We also know that there are medical benefits to have regular orgasms.

We also know that a human's sex drive is fundamental to its identity.

All these things were explored in fairly recent times, mostly much after Joseph Smith established the mormon church.

Maybe mormons should start looking at what we know is good for humans in this life instead of going by the word of a man who lived before most of these issues were appreciated.