Matt's Mormon Thread

[ironduck]

I just don't understand how you can say that the reason we are put on earth is for experience if many spirits will never get this experience since they die before or shortly after they're born - and according to you they don't get a second chance at gaining experience on earth.

I also don't understand why god doesn't share his knowledge regarding issues like this, I cannot possibly be the only person asking the questions.

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

I didn't say they won't get a second chance, I just said I don't know if they will or not. And by and large God tells us what we need to know based on His timetable, not ours. I don't need to know every detail of His plan of salvation, just the parts that I need to know to get the benefits of it. God, in His much-greater-than-ours wisdom, doesn't tell us everything at once.

 

[Alpine Trooper]

Who cares about Mormons?

 

[Cuivienen]

Who cares about Mormons?

Who cares about Canadians? Being Canadian is kind of like being a part of some sort of New Age religion, anyway.

 

[Alpine Trooper]

Who cares about Canadians?

No one.

 

[ironduck]

I didn't say they won't get a second chance, I just said I don't know if they will or not. And by and large God tells us what we need to know based on His timetable, not ours. I don't need to know every detail of His plan of salvation, just the parts that I need to know to get the benefits of it. God, in His much-greater-than-ours wisdom, doesn't tell us everything at once.

But it would seem that god has to leak a bit more information to get some of us to consider his divinity more seriously. So why doesn't he?

Related to that, why do mormons go out to convert people? Isn't god fully capable of showing himself to anyone he wishes? Does he really need humans to help ring the doorbell?

 

[El_Machinae]

It's a proactive expression of love, I'm sure.

 

[ironduck]

I understand why they would want to go out and spread the happy message of god, what I don't understand is that god asks them to. Most christians seem to agree that god can do pretty much anything he wants, so if he wants people to know about him he can just do his magic and they will know instantly.

 

[El_Machinae]

Ah. I find confronting religious people in this vein somewhat fun, because eventually they just stammer. Actually, there are quite a few veins that I enjoy. You're really going to subject Eran to this line of questioning? "Why isn't YOUR God powerful enough to get what He wants done without hurting people?"

 

[ironduck]

I'm actually not trying to play games or trick Eran into anything. I just don't get the logic, and since Eran seems to think there's some logic here that I'm missing and not just 'faith', then I'm trying to understand what the logic is.

Christians being told by god to convert the non-believers has always been a mystery to me because the christian god is normally seen as omnipotent and omniscient. He should not need to ask people to help him with such a thing. There must be something else behind it (philosophically), perhaps that through the conversion process they learn about their faith? Not the person being converted, but the person preaching conversion, I mean. That's not the reason god gives in the bible though.

 

[El_Machinae]

Well, for the missionary, it's an act of love (as we've agreed) ... what I don't get is God being willing to risk the heathen's soul, just so the missionary gets to act in a loving way.

I'll stop interrupting now.

 

[ironduck]

Except if it's really irrelevant what the missionaries do because god is fully capable of letting people know about him when he needs to. Going with the super-powerful god that's the only thing that makes sense to me. Therefore it follows that the missionary is in reality educating himself more than the people he tries to convert. Again, that's not what it says in the bible though.

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

Ah. I find confronting religious people in this vein somewhat fun, because eventually they just stammer. Actually, there are quite a few veins that I enjoy. You're really going to subject Eran to this line of questioning? "Why isn't YOUR God powerful enough to get what He wants done without hurting people?"

I just had yet another long thread eaten by the computer. But again: El_Machinae mentions The Question, asking for an explanation to the problem of evil: given that evil exists, how can God be both omnipotent and omnibenevolent? He can't of course, it's logically impossible. (A trilemma, as CS Lewis would call it.) In Mormonism, although we don't usually use these terms, we say that God isn't actually omnipotent. He can do anything that can be logically done within the universe, but there are limits. Thus He could prevent us from ever having to suffer or experience pain, but there would be a cost; it is only by experiencing pain, and by being allowed to make our own choices freely (which will naturally result in pain and evil, it's inevitable) can we develop and more fully experience joy, as well as become like God. It is very roughly analogous (but not completely the same) to a parent who allows his child to walk around on her own. She will inevitably fall down and hurt herself, and cry, but if he leaves her tied to a chair, she will experience neither the pain of falling nor the growth of walking.

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

To answer ironduck more fully: we don't believe that those who don't accept (or are never exposed to) Mormonism in this life will be condemned. That would be unjust on God's part. So when we go door-to-door (the lowest-yield method we have, by the way, but still more effective than most people realize) we are not exactly 'saving their souls' in the sense that to not do so leads invariably to damnation. Condemnation will only come to those who, after having been given enough knowledge to know that the gospel is true (which will come to all in this life or the next), refuse to accept it. What we are doing, besides helping us grow spiritually (which does happen; no one benefits more from a missionary's labors more than the missionary) is helping them by giving them the chance to see sooner, rather than later, the truth, God's plan, and how best to follow the path He has given us. Of course, many people follow God very well in one form or another without ever having heard of us, or even necessarily believing in God, but we believe (of course) that it is best done according to the teachings we have. So it helps people to hear from the missionaries, but they won't be damned without it.

@alpine trooper: what a silly question. Who cares? Those who asked many questions about Mormonism on another thread, leading a Mormon to start this one, which between the questions and answers has reached 14 pages.

 

[ironduck]

That's pretty much as I figured then, mormonism is one of the christian factions that doesn't claim people go to hell if they don't believe in god - just like most christians don't believe that where I come from either (that's to Machinae who hadn't heard of this before).

I'm not sure I understand why it's best to learn about how to follow god's path sooner rather than later, is that because it increases the chance of eventually being accepted into heaven?

The way I understand the christian thoughts that actually make sense to me, it works like this:

At some point or another god will reveal himself to everyone. When this happens there will be no doubt about the nature of god, and therefore one can either choose to go with him or go away from him. One is called heaven, the other is called hell. If one goes with god it simply means one wants to have a relationship with him. If one does not wish so one obviously closes him out. What this means is that hell is simply a place where god is not.

Similarly, heaven and hell can be thought of as a state of mind in life here, and not as an afterlife. Heaven is harmony and inner peace, hell is the opposite.

Therefore, it makes no sense to threaten or promise either heaven or hell. It's similar to buddhism in this sense.

That's the only christian philosophy I can really accept and that I find sympathetic. All the dogma, doctrines, and rules, are basically useless. The testaments, mainly the old, are filled with contradictions and things that go against this line of thought; but with the christian scripture one has to interpret.

I'm off for christmas holidays

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

The LDS conception of the afterlife is actually more complicated than many realize. I think this would be a good place for a basic primer on what we call the Plan of Salvation:

As already discussed, we started off as spirits without bodies, in what is sometimes called the 'Premortal Life'. Because suffering and pain, as well as the ability to make our own choices freely, were necessary for our further growth, a plan was developed wherein we would go to earth, be given bodies, and be allowed to make our own moral choices, with the knowledge that we would be judged on them. Since, however, it was inevitable that we would sin, and no sinful thing can withstand the presence of God, it was vital that a Saviour be provided who could pay the price of sin for those who accepted it, and thus they could be free from their sins. So we received a body and came to earth. Here, some learn of this plan, and those who know it try to share it with others, but we all have a conscience and some sense of morality, which we need to obey as best as we can. After we die, there will be a period in which all will learn of this plan, and be given the chance to accept Christ, or reject Him freely if they wish.

Then we will be judged and sent to one of what we call 3 kingdoms or degrees of glory: the Celestial, where those who are worthy of the presence of God will live, and may continue progressing to become gods some day; the Terrestrial, for those who were less faithful in following Christ; and the Telestial, for those who led sinful lives and did not repent. The twist to all this is that even the lowest, to which the truly evil will be condemned, is a better and more joyful state than any which can exist on earth. However, those sent there will have an eternity to spend with the memory of their sins. So, for example, Hitler will spend forever to contemplate on the meaning of having millions of people murdered. Likewise, those who have strived for righteousness will be able to live in the presence of God.

A former president of the church once specifically said that atheists (as well as Muslims, Buddhists, etc.) would be able to reach the highest levels of the Celestial Kingdom, if they accepted the Gospel in the next life. However, the reason we try to share it with people now is that knowing this plan makes it easier to follow, and we will know what it is that we have to do to reach it.

 

[ironduck]

Thank you for the primer.

Here, some learn of this plan, and those who know it try to share it with others, but we all have a conscience and some sense of morality, which we need to obey as best as we can.

How about people who have a medical condition that causes them to lack empathy? Since I consider empathy to be the basis of morality it makes no sense for a god to put souls into such 'deficient' bodies and expect them to have a proper sense of morality ingrained.

 

[ironduck]

Btw, I was wondering if there's a mention of the three kingdoms in the bible, because I don't remember it. The old testament is full of fire and brimstone (which doesn't sound too nice) and even the new has some references to a bad-ass hell rather than something that's 'better and more joyful state than any which can exist on earth'..

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

Paul makes a reference in 1 Corinthians 15:40-42 to glories of the sun, moon, and stars, which we use as symbols of the three degrees, and specifically uses the words 'celestial' and 'terrestrial'. Of course, there are a billion possible interpretations for this as for any Biblical verse. Thus our doctrine comes from the Doctrine and Covenants, especially Section 76. As far as descriptions of Hell as a nasty place, we do believe that the unrepentant will be subjected to such punishments. They are not eternal, however, and after they are endured those subject to them will enter into the lowest degree of glory, being cut off from God.

As far as those who lack empathy, I assume you mean sociopaths and the like; again, I don't know why God gives some specific handicaps but I do know that they will be judged according to what they were capable of understanding, as much as by their actions.

 

[ironduck]

I just read Corinthians 15 as you linked to and it reads much like the Noah's ark story to me in the sense that the understanding of nature at the time was very limited. For instance, it says:

38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.

39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.

It speaks in 'kinds' like the story of Noah's ark, as if the animals can be divided in simple groups.

Then it continues:

40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.

41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.

The sun was not considered a star at the time, so it gets a title of its own relative to the stars. I don't see where it speaks of three different places to go in the afterlife anywhere in that though.

I see it speaks of natural and spiritual bodies though:

44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

As for god putting souls into bodies with deficient brains that are unable to develop a real sense of morality just doesn't make sense to me if he expects the souls to act according to that morality.