Matt's Mormon Thread

[Newawd]

@Methos: You quoted all of those scriptures from memory?! Man. Not bad. Is not Jesus a god? He sits on the right hand of God the Father. Is Jesus not beside God the Father? Does a Jealous King not still have Dukes and Lords? The problem is that in this case, even though the Dukes and Lords are called "Kings", they still are subserviant to the "High King" if you will. In the belief system we're talking about, there are no gods in front of or above Heavenly Father (God the Father).

When you have kids, Methos, will you want them to have all that you have, or less? Honestly think about it for a moment. (no really, stop and think about it before you go on) Mormons truly believe that God the Father is the Father of our spirits. As a perfect father who has perfect love for his children, would he want anything less for his children than you will want for yours? Once again, I'm using more 'common sense' than "in John 3:16 it says..." You have to keep in mind what Mormons believe about God the Father. They believe that in a very real sense, He *is* their Father. While they aspire to be like him, they will *always* and *forever* revere him as their God/King/Master. No Mormon who is practicing his faith would ever aspire to above (or equal to) God the Father.

 

[Newawd]

Dupe post. Sorry.

 

[ironduck]

They mean the disintegration of the family as a basic social unit, not of individual families (which disintegrate all the time; usually this is a bad thing but sometimes it is a necessary evil). The calamaties don't mean tsunamis or hurricanes but increased misery, separation from God, things like that.

Why is someone separated from god if they realize that they have grown apart and should no longer be together?

And what prophets exactly are they thinking of then in that proclamation? Usually the prophets in the old testament are full of fire and brimstone.

The bigger problem is that heterosexuals no longer value the family, and don't place a good relationship with their spouse and children as a high priority.

I think more people in the west prioritize good relations with their children and spouses than they used to. Marriage used to be strictly an economic arrangement, and still is in large parts of the world. And it's not long ago that most families in the west were strictly patriarchal, which hardly fits with a romantic idea of family in 'the good old days'. Family life in most of the world still sucks in a big way because the man is in control. That has nothing to do with equality and everything to do with tyrrany.

 

[Newawd]

Ironduck, the 'bad' family that you describe is not the family you read about in that article, is it? If all families were centered around Christ, with the equal partner concept, would that be good for the world? The Church Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints pushes for *good* families, not just families. Any Joe Schmoe in the world can be a father, but it takes a lot of hard work to create the kind of family talked about in the Proclamation to the World on the Family.

 

[Methos]

@Methos: You quoted all of those scriptures from memory?! Man. Not bad.

No, I did not quote those from memory. I wish I could. In honesty I googled several phrases.

 

[Newawd]

"Marriage used to be strictly an economic arrangement, and still is in large parts of the world."
@Ironduck: I've spoken with people from cultures about arranged marriages. Love and companionship very much does have a place in such relationships. I would respectfully disagree that such relationships are 'strictly an economic arrangement".

 

[Newawd]

@Methos: Cheater!

 

[ironduck]

Ironduck, the 'bad' family that you describe is not the family you read about in that article, is it? If all families were centered around Christ, with the equal partner concept, would that be good for the world? The Church Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints pushes for *good* families, not just families. Any Joe Schmoe in the world can be a father, but it takes a lot of hard work to create the kind of family talked about in the Proclamation to the World on the Family.

I was replying to the statement that people no longer value the family and give their spouses and children high priority. Fact is that most families in the west are doing a heck of a lot better on that front than they ever have because they used to be harsh patriarchal structures.

 

[ironduck]

"Marriage used to be strictly an economic arrangement, and still is in large parts of the world."
@Ironduck: I've spoken with people from cultures about arranged marriages. Love and companionship very much does have a place in such relationships. I would respectfully disagree that such relationships are 'strictly an economic arrangement".

When someone is married away for the return of money, surely it is an economic arrangement? Do you know how unwanted women are in many parts of the world? Do you know why?

Do you believe that any two random people will automatically be the love of their life for each other if they just try hard enough? Because that is the situation in arranged marriages. In my opinion you are buying blindly into wishful thinking. Would you like to enter an arranged marriage without having any influence on who your partner will be, and yet you are expected to be together for the rest of your life? Guess what, very very few people who actually have a choice pick that option.

 

[Newawd]

Haha! Sorry, but the irony is overwhelming. Very recently I was discussing with my brother the fact that just when you think you know a woman well enough, you marry her. Then when you marry her, you realize that the woman you married is nothing like what you thought she was. I know the two aren't the same, but it just struck me as funny. It's also funny that the person from the 'arranged marriage' culture that I was speaking with lives here in the US. She said (yes, *she*) that she would pick an arranged marriage any day of the week.

Keep in mind that she could be a complete fluke. I don't pretend to have any first-hand experience with this.

Wow. This has gone pretty far off topic. We're down to discussing the values of arranged vs. choice marriage.

 

[Theodorick]

Tell a Mormon 'Good Mormon' instead of 'Good Morning'. It might get a chuckle.

 

[ironduck]

If the person you marry is nothing like you thought you didn't marry that person, you married your own fantasy.

 

[Methos]

Wow. This has gone pretty far off topic. We're down to discussing the values of arranged vs. choice marriage.

I agree, as I'm unsure how this has to do with Mormonism. To my knowledge Mormons do not follow the arranged marriage.

A Mormon and a Baptist walk into a ....

 

[ironduck]

It's also funny that the person from the 'arranged marriage' culture that I was speaking with lives here in the US. She said (yes, *she*) that she would pick an arranged marriage any day of the week.

Somehow I doubt she would feel that way if the man she was married to was abusive or just had an altogether nasty personality.

 

[Newawd]

You know, that was pretty deep. Some would probably be offended, but not I. That's food for thought.

Back on topic though. I think the point is that Good Families = Better World. That is aside from the point that Mormons believe that God commanded them to have good families though.

edit: I was talking about the "fantasy" comment.

 

[ironduck]

I agree, as I'm unsure how this has to do with Mormonism. To my knowledge Mormons do not follow the arranged marriage.

The relevance is that a mormon document was quoted that talked about marriage and family, after which a mormon here said that marriage is not doing so well now because people no longer value the family or its values.

My reply was that the family in the west is doing better than ever in most respects, unlike most parts of the world where it's still akin to a dictatorship.

 

[Methos]

after which a Mormon here said that marriage is not doing so well now because people no longer value the family or its values.

I have to agree with him. IMO happiness and comfort of the family sets most of a persons true values. No matter how bad the job is a good family to come home to can make that time worth it.

As to whether people these days not valueing the family, I would agree to that as well. Most people do not value marriage, as made obvious by both the number of divorces and the easiness at which people file pre-nup agreements. My opinion is based off of the West mind you.

Good family values and a good relationship IMO form the foundation of a better life.

I waited until I was 27 before I got married, and up until that point I always said I would never get married. I did not decide to propose, but realized that I was just ready. My life was making the changes to prepare for marriage without myself conscientiously doing it. Now, I could not see myself spending my life without her.

My reply was that the family in the family in the west is doing better than ever in most respects, unlike most parts of the world where it's still akin to a dictatorship.

I agree with you. In the majority of the world the male does rule the family.

 

[Newawd]

The number of kids who grow up in broken homes is staggering. Please, nobody debate the nuances of what a 'family' is with me. Many studies have shown that the most healthy environment a child can be in is (optimal condition) is to have 1 mother and 1 father who both care for their children and for each other. The world is sadly lacking in that area right now. It's something that most Christians (not just Mormons) are concerned about. Ever heard of Dr. Dobson? He wrote a great book called "Focus on the Family" that dealt with it some.

I wonder if anyone else has any other specific questions. Did any get skipped?

Methos, did your question get answered concerning what Mormons believe about being able to become Gods, subserviant to God the Father?

 

[Methos]

(incidentally, what is the 'Mormon bible'? Do you mean the Book of Mormon, which no Mormon has ever called the 'Mormon bible'?)

My apologies at this. I meant no disrespect. My wording of 'the Mormon bible' was not meant as derogatory. In the future I will refer to it as the Book of Mormon.

 

[Methos]

Methos, did your question get answered concerning what Mormons believe about being able to become Gods, subserviant to God the Father?

I'm unsure honestly. I now understand it as not a Mormon believes they are technically becoming gods, but that it is more in line with eternal salvation. Basically sitting at the right-hand of God is spending eternity in Heaven rather than as I used to understand it, that a Mormon believed they became gods of their own world (much like their own Adam and Eve).

Edit: The statements made about godhood were in effect about eternal salvation, rather than being actual gods.

Am I correct?