Matt's Mormon Thread

[ironduck]

The number of kids who grow up in broken homes is staggering. Please, nobody debate the nuances of what a 'family' is with me. Many studies have shown that the most healthy environment a child can be in is (optimal condition) is to have 1 mother and 1 father who both care for their children and for each other.

Actually we recently had a thread where a number of studies were pointed to that showed that children that grew up in same-sex families (gay parents) were at a minimum doing just as well as their peers from regular families.

The children of this world have a lot of worries. Homosexual parents are not really one of them.

Real worries include: No food. No home. Diseases. Abuse. No education. Working under terrible conditions.

Most children in this world would give anything for loving parents to take care of them.

 

[Methos]

@Newawd: I'm curious what your username stands for. I know you don't play Civ so it definitely doesn't have to do with being New at All-War Deity. Sorry, civ joke. AWD is the civ variant of playing an All War game on Deity level.

 

[Methos]

Real worries include: No food. No home. Diseases. Abuse. No education. Working under terrible conditions.

Add to that having no one introduce you to God.

 

[ironduck]

Add to that having no one introduce you to God.

You are kidding, right? Please tell me you are kidding. If god needs to be introduced to someone he sure as hell can get off his ass and do so.

Starving to death or been beating to smithereens are real worries. Please leave your religion out of this.

 

[Methos]

You are kidding, right? Please tell me you are kidding. If god needs to be introduced to someone he sure as hell can get off his ass and do so.

Starving to death or been beating to smithereens are real worries. Please leave your religion out of this.

I meant no disrespect at that, so I apologize, but answer me this if you wish too. Which is worse, spending you life homeless, half-starved, beaten, etc and spending eternity in Heaven, or living in a luxurious mansion, with no worries financially, everything you want, and than spending eternity in Hell? IMO I would prefer the first option.

Question: Since this is off-topic are we allowed to discuss religion as I have done above, or are we still required to keep shy of it? If it is the latter I apologize for that paragraph and will remove it if I have stepped over the line.

 

[El_Machinae]

To agree with Ironduck: I think it is more important to stop suffering than to introduce the concept of God to a kid. Yeah, it's a relative value judgement, but what can you do?

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

Two issues here:

First, regarding the Proclamation on the Family: what we want is for children to be raised by two loving parents who love them and each other. And yes, because we are a religion, that includes introducing them to God (or at the least, teaching them your moral values, even if you don't believe in God) and that the parents be a man and a woman. But what it is really emphasizing is that it is important that parents place a high priority on their children, and spouses on each other, that they love and support each other and that no one rules tyrannically. (Something the Church often emphasizes is the fact that it is a great sin for men to dominate or exercise unrighteous dominion over their wives - they are meant to be equal partners). And that is a definition of good marriage. We are not saying that thing now are worse in all respects than ever before, or that things are worse in all respects in the West than anywhere else - we are saying that dire consequences will result from failure to adhere to this basic formula, in the form of unhappiness, broken societies, etc.

Second: We do believe that we are literal spirit children of God. Salvation in its highest form means more than just 'sitting at the right hand of God' or being in His presence; it means we will increase in knowledge, in power, in the ability to love, to feel joy, and to worship God. That is what we mean by becoming gods - 'fulfilling our destiny' referring to becoming beings on a higher level than we are now. Of course, we can't be lifted higher than our Creator, who is the one who will make us gods - in fact, since God is our Creator, by elevating and exalting us like this, He is adding to His own glory as well, plus we will be able to understand and to worship Him on a higher level. Newawd actually grasped this pretty well, and we are not the only Christians to feel this way. Where we do depart from anyone else (as far as I know) is in saying that in addition, we will be able to become spiritual parents ourselves, and our spirit children will gain physical bodies as we did. I don't think they will be on 'other planets', not in this universe anyways.

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

@El_Machinae: you may think (and ironduck clearly believes) that ending suffering in this life is more important than ensuring happiness in the next. But we are a religion, we do believe the next life is important, and thus we commit ourselves both to relieving suffering in this life and what we see as a greater goal, because its effects are much more permanent, which is helping people prepare for eternity.

 

[ironduck]

I meant no disrespect at that, so I apologize, but answer me this if you wish too. Which is worse, spending you life homeless, half-starved, beaten, etc and spending eternity in Heaven, or living in a luxurious mansion, with no worries financially, everything you want, and than spending eternity in Hell? IMO I would prefer the first option.

If god exists and is a good god those children will go to heaven even though no one told them about god. Considering how powerful christians consider god to be and how good he is considered, there is no way he would not give a real chance to those poor children.

It seems to me that he's not a very good god if he's so powerful though, since he's allowing the deaths of so many innocents for no good reason. Yes, that's a topic for another discussion, but it pisses me off when god is touted as oh-so-powerful and oh-so-good and then people have to fear hell because he hasn't gotten off his arse and introduced himself to those poor ignorant souls.

I don't badmouth religions unless they try to instill fear in people or try to control how people can live their lives peacefully. There are a lot of religions out there with a lot of different gods. What matters is that people get a fighting chance in life, not what god they believe in or don't believe in.

 

[ironduck]

@El_Machinae: you may think (and ironduck clearly believes) that ending suffering in this life is more important than ensuring happiness in the next.

If your god is worth his salt he will see that helping people in this life is good and therefore deserves any reward that could be put forward in the next life.

So stop worrying about the potential next life and start living this one which is the only one you can control now.

 

[Sir Bugsy]

From Ephesians 2:8-10 (KJV)

For by grace you are saved through faith, and this is not from yourselves; it is God's gift-- not from works, so that no one can boast. For we are His making, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared ahead of time so that we should walk in them.

That is not to say that good works are not important. They just are not required for salvation. Belief in Moses is not required. Belief in Joseph Smith is not required. Being a member of a church is not required. You don't even have to be a "good" person. The only requirement is that you believe that Jesus is the Messiah. Period. End of statement.

That is what Christianity is all about. Belief.

That is why you are always hearing about John 3:16

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

I used the KJV here since it is the only version that Mormons read.

I don't see anything about belief in anything but belief in "his only begotten Son."

I know this concept is bad for church business. And a lot of churches are a business. They need people coming back and giving money. Know of any churches that require a tithe or guilt you into it? Know of any churches that require you to perform certain duties? Know of any churches that believe they control your salvation and can "excommunicate you" if you do not follow their instructions or accepted doctrine?

In fact, I suspect the motivation of any religious movement that isn't solely about belief.

Edit - while these are some of the few Bible verses I actually have memorized, this was a cut and paste job.

 

[Sir Bugsy]

From what I understand, Mormons belive that the we (people) are the children of god. Unless I'm mistaken, that's a pretty basic and common tennant priniciple amongst churches that claim to be Christian. I'll spare you looking up places in the bible that state that unless somebody claims that the bible says no such thing.

Now, if I could ask a few basic quesitons for everyone...

What do baby dogs grow up to be?

What do baby cats grow up to be?

What do baby fish grow up to be?

If we are the children of God, what would we grow up to be?

Those are just questions. I'll let people answer them for themselves. IMHO, that's not some crazy philosophy... That's common sense. Keep in mind that I didn't make a claim, I just asked some questions to get people thinking. Thinking is good. I try to do it at *least* twice a week.

@Newawd: Thank you. We don't consider the fact that we can become like God to be some obscure, esoteric doctrine, but rather the logical conclusion of many things that God has said.

@ironduck - You stated everything that Mormons claim to know about God's wife when you asked the question: She's God's wife.

The whole "Heavenly Mother" concept is something that Mormons don't talk about much. They figure that if they were supposed to deal with the subject of God's Wife, He would have revealed a lot more about her. I can see where they're coming from too. If you really want to upset somebody, talk smack about their wife. It's a topic better left 'out there' IMHO.

So my Mormon friends, exactly how many Gods are there? All good Mormons can become Gods. God has a wife, who must also be a God. There is God himself. How many? A couple of thousand? A couple of million?

 

[downtown]

"I" think there is a difference between becoming "like" God, and becoming "a" God. How many beings have achived exaltation is not important to me. There is but one god i worship, and that is the Lord.

 

[Newawd]

Oh boy. Please don’t pull out the “saved by grace” card. I’ve heard that so many times… “Sir, would you like 6 eggs, or half a dozen?” We believe the same thing where that is concerned. We believe in the same bible. I’m glad you brought it up though, as it leads us to two important questions: Why would we need works? Why would we need the “Book of Mormon”?

All you need to have is faith, right? Yes. Of course, if you truly have faith, then you *do* have works. You can’t have one without the other. If you don’t want to believe me, then ask Tiago (he’s a scriptorian). I heard a rumor that he knows a lot about the bible. The good news is that I’m responding to a few other questions with this post as well. Should we help take care of the needy in this world? Tiago has the answer to that one as well. Yes, we *do* need to take care of the needy in this world, as a matter of fact, Tiago would argue that if you have faith, but you don’t try to take care of the needy in this world, your faith is worth *nothing*. Dead, if you will. Here’s the quote from Tiago (oh, by the way, Tiago is Portuguese for “James&#8221.

From the Epistle of James (in the King James Version of the Bible):
14. What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

15. If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily bfood,

16. And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?

17. Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

18. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

19. Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

20. But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

21. Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

22. Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

23. And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

24. Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

25. Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?

26. For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

I’m sorry, I just really don’t see how somebody can read that in the bible, and then say, “Those Mormons are crazy! We don’t need works!” Christians believe that a day will come when *all* will believe that Christ is the son of the living, because they will see Jesus standing on the right hand of God the Father. Seeing is believing, or so they say. At the very least, people have *got* to be able to at least say, "OK. I can see where they might get the idea that works could be important."

I think an important distinction to make is what, exactly, it means to be ‘saved’. By the grace of God we are saved from the first effect of the fall of Adam: The physical death. *All* will be resurrected. We are very much saved by works. There is no work that I could do that would cause my body to resurrect after I die. Only the grace of god can do that.

Now, there are those who will read what was posted about being saved by grace, and then read this passage from the Epistle of James, and say, “See!? That’s why I don’t buy into this religion stuff. The very bible contradicts itself!” Yes, the bible does contradict itself (though I would say that the apparent contradiction in this particular case is from a lack of understanding what is really being said in the “saved by grace” verse), and it’s not too hard to find at least *some* contradictions in the bible. I mean, what is “Bible” anyway? Bible means, “Collection of Books”. It comes from the same root as the word, “Biblioteca” in Portuguese (which means “library&#8221. Lets be honest, the bible is a compilation of old writings that we (Christians) believe come from holy men (prophets and apostles mostly). When those men wrote those things, thousands of years ago, I do not believe that there were contradictions. Those writings, however, have been passed down, translated, and modified by imperfect men like you and I. That is why the Book of Mormon, which teaches us about Christ via the mouths of Prophets that lived far from “The Holy Land” is so important. It is a companion to the bible to help us clear up much of the confusion in the world about the nature of God, his Son, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost. Methos, that is why many members of the LDS church are a little touchy about people calling the Book of Mormon the “Mormon Bible”. The Mormon Bible is the King James Version of the Bible. The Book of Mormon (somewhere earlier in this thread somebody was kind enough to post a pic for everyone), is clearly “Another Testament of Jesus Christ”. God gave us this additional witness to help us clear up this sort of confusion. I *dare* somebody to try to convince me that the bible alone doesn’t leave many people confused. That would be an argument that would leave any intelligent person laughing. God knew this would happen, so he thought ahead (he’s good at thinking ahead) and gave the world the Book of Mormon. There are those who would tell you, “He can’t do that!” Obviously, I beg to differ. He *can* do that.

Oh, and somebody had said something about Tithing being required. Not so. It is encouraged, but no one is obliged. As a matter of fact, it is not public. There is no collection basket. When outside of church meetings, I pay my Tithing and it's between me and God. There's no paid clergy in the LDS church. If you walk into a meeting house for the LDS church during a church meeting, you will see nothing but volunteers. The money from Tithing goes to things like electricity and building of new churches and maintenance of old ones. Lets be honest, god doesn't need money, but electricity *does* cost money. In the LDS church though, somebody sitting next to me could have gone the last 10 years without paying a penny for Tithing, and I wouldn't have a clue.

 

[Newawd]

@Bugsy: I'll tell you how many Gods there are as soon as you tell me how many Angels there are.

Seriously though, there is definately biblical evidance of this concept. Remember, I'm not trying to prove anything here. This is just a few observations...

(To Adam and Eve. Note, not as God, but as *gods*. Adam and Even thought nothing strange of this use of the word. Why would that be?)

Genesis 3:5
For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

(Christ to his critics)
John 10:33-34
33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?

There are more, and I could go on (if somebody insists, I will). I will stop with a simple statement that most Christians can agree with though. How many gods are there? Well, there is Christ. That's one. His father ("God the Father"). That's two. WAIT!? Stop the press! . All of the sudden, that's more than one. Look, all I'm saying is that whether or not you believe that Heavenly Father's children can grow up to be like him, you can at least see that the bible does not rule out the possibility. "Thou shalt not have any other gods before me." Not, "No other gods exist. Deal with it." We believe that we will always be subserviant to God the Father as well as God the son (Jesus Christ). We also believe that humans have far more potential than many other religions. We believe that we can (if we make the right choices) some day be like Him and do some of the things that He has done. Honestly, that just doesn't sound so crazy to me.

 

[ironduck]

How many gods are there? Well, there is Christ. That's one. His father ("God the Father"). That's two. WAIT!? Stop the press! . All of the sudden, that's more than one.

Although most people who are not christian tend to have a problem with the concept of the trinity, you are probably the first christian denomination I've come across that count Jesus as a god. Jesus is normally considered a different side of god (a human side) rather than a different god altogether.

 

[Newawd]

@Ironduck: I have to disagree with you there Ironduck. In my 2 years in Brazil I talked about nothing but religion for 2 years. Most of the people I talked to did not see Jesus Christ as an incarnation of God the Father. Most of them believed that he was a seperate person. Of course, when you started asking them about the Trinity they would get really confused and often admit that they didn't understand how it all worked. The two are one in purpose. Of one heart. Of one mind. But they are two different people.

From the Nicene Creed:
We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
the only Son of God,
eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made,
of one Being with the Father.
Through him all things were made.

And look at the last sentence: Through him? I thought that God created all things himself. I guess I was mistaken. Some unknown entity out there created the world *through* God. Please excuse the bit of sarcasm, but I think you get my point. There is God the Father, and His son Jesus Christ, who, if you believe what is in the Nicene Creed, is also a God.

Did that make sense?

edit: Oh, and I don't have a problem with the Nicene Creed. It is a bit confusing, but I believe it was written by very wise men who knew the bible very well. While I don't believe it is flawless, I do believe that most of the apparent contradiction in it is do to people not understanding it.

 

[ironduck]

@Ironduck: I have to disagree with you there Ironduck. In my 2 years in Brazil I talked about nothing but religion for 2 years. Most of the people I talked to did not see Jesus Christ as an incarnation of God the Father. Most of them believed that he was a seperate person.

I didn't say he wasn't a separate person, I said that I've yet to come across other christians that saw him as a separate god. It doesn't surprise me that the christians you talked to were confused about the trinity - I've yet to meet anyone who could really explain it (particularly the holy spirit tends to cause trouble).

Jesus being a real person does not make Jesus a god. The way I read the four gospels Jesus was a human being, created by god, without sin. The miracles he performed were through the powers of god, being channeled into him so to speak. In other words, he made himself a tool of god or an extension of god to help other people. Being such an instrument he was then able to be a passageway for people to go through if they wanted to be with god (go to heaven). Therefore 'I am the light, through me you come to my father'.

This does not make Jesus a god, it makes him a human who is willingly letting himself be an instrument of god.

Anyway, I have no problem with your interpretation, I'm not a christian and if I was I probably wouldn't care either. I'm simply saying I've never heard of another christian denomination that considers Jesus a separate god.

From the Nicene Creed:
We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
the only Son of God,
eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made,
of one Being with the Father.
Through him all things were made.

And look at the last sentence: Through him? I thought that God created all things himself. I guess I was mistaken.

The way I read the last two lines it says '.. the father through him all things were made'. All things were made through the father (god), not through Jesus (his son).

 

[Newawd]

My main point with the Nicene Creed was within these two lines:

God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,

Whether or not *people* don't see Jesus as a God is up to the individual. The Nicene Creed says he is not just a God, but a True God . The wise men who wrote it understood that.

 

[Newawd]

I just want to say how impressed I am that we can have this discussion without anyone getting all bent out of shape. It's nice to discuss something like this with mature people who can do so without freaking out.