MB4 - GOTM24 Redux [civ3] Roster A

@MB: Sorry to hear about your plumbing problems. I hope you are on the way back to normal life now. Thanks for the tip-off.

As I'm the one with the open game file right now:

A quick check in the Civilopedia shows us the Kamikaze, available with Flight and Oil. Stats are:

Cost 40
Population cost 1
ADM 0/0/1
Bombard 12
Range 6
Rate of fire 3

No text details are given, but given historical precedent I guess it's single-use, and it might be lethal.

Its stats are a bomber's range and rate of fire, but with 50% more bombard power like Artillery. I've never really understood firing rate but I assume it's to do with the probablility of a hit? I imagine it rebases to cities or carriers like a bomber. No guns, so there's no advantage in building vets at an airport. We just give them a couple of flying lessons in take off and short range navigation.

We don't know who else can build them.
 
I think ROF is how much damage it might do, so artillery has ROF 2 and can do either 1 or 2 damage. One of the Mongal troops had this. So the Kamikaze can do 1, 2, or 3 damage. Again I assume single use, with 40 shields and 1 pop loss, I guess we can build a lot quickly and would be very useful.

I agree with plan A, go for the Tank route, we can work out how to get Artillery later.

Smackster
 
I'm playing, honest! I've gifted Kunsan back to Baekje and used the cannons that were returned to Shimodo to damage Han's invading rider Army then finished it off with two cavalry - one lost. Nobungu is safely at home in Azuchi after a bit of ship relay work. Azuchi's current cavalry production will complete right on time for Nobungu to do his magic there on completion of Scientific Method.

Nishi ku is not responding well to bombardment. It's size 7 and on a hill. The compat calculator says we only have a 17.4% chance of success against 3/3 fortified rifles there. I've pillaged the food tile, but they have a harbour and plenty of 2 fpt coastal tiles. Moving ships around there to blockade the coast will take time. Meanwhile I'm hoping for a lucky cannon shot to cut their pop.

It's v-e-r-y s-l-o-o-o--w! Watching 70 cannon fire off, and moving a couple of hundered workers at a time is taking a lot of time. I'm going to save and reload, maybe that'll speed up the action a bit.
 
Alan excellent work with a very awful hand that I left you. Outstanding work getting the leader. I would go the traditional route with AT & Electronics in order to get Hoover's for two reasons.
1. Those are two very expensive techs that are required to get tanks.
2. We can research the upper side of the tech tree at second and get there slightly quicker.

In trying to get GotM 27 to work in PTW, I noticed the Kamikazi unit in the art section. That would have been very interesting to run up against in the regular GotM. I guess we need to evaluate the use of one time use units. I've never been a fan of them. I've never liked cruise missles that cost 60 shields for one or 2 hp. I'd rather spend an extra 20 shields on artillery and get to use it every turn.
 
Uff. I connected four times today, read your posts and tried to reply as many times -actually starting last night at an unlikely crowded time... :D

It really looks like we are improving a delicate situation :goodjob: !

I have been thinking of our next priorities.
This depends on where we expect to be in tech by the time we could be ready to ship some Infantries (and possibly Arties and some Cavs) to the Han capital.

Ideally, we would make peace with the Han and trade for RP and Industrialization (even using AT and/or Electricity); then, we could enjoy a brief peaceful spell during which Democracy can be an option to try and speed up research and production.

At that point we would be able to directly use tanks in our next Korean expedition, but I am not really sure that Democracy is viable in our present situation (money + war weariness).

If it takes too long before tanks are available, we should probably engage in some guerrilla actions aimed at disrupting the Han's production and resoruces -starting from their capital- while we prepare for the real invasion.
 
Originally posted by Karasu
Oh, and... an afterthought. When you mentioned conscription, did you mean mobilization? I would not be totally against that...
Click to expand...
Mobilisation is not available in GOTM as I understand it, because of an exploitable bug. Conscription *is* available - with Nationalism you can convert citizens into soldiers, but they are only 2/2 conscript units of your current best defender.

Well, I've finally surfaced after ten busy turns.

Preflight
IBT
Turn 1 - 1355 AD
- see previous posts

IBT
Single Shimazu cav counterattacks and kills a 2/4 cav in Nichinan.
Shimazu launch a frigate/junk pair from Nish-ku
A Han frigate/kublai pair approaches our east coast
Another Han frigate/kublai pair lands a 13/13 rider army on our west coast near Yokohama.

Baekje ask the remnants of our expeditionary force to leave. OK.
Han completes Bach's cathedral.

Turn 2 - 1360 AD
Cannons returned from Baekje-land bombard teh Han army to 5/13. Two cavalry finish the job with one lost.

At Nishi-ku the bombard continues. No pop reduction and only two hit points taken from rifles. This is a hill city, pop 7 with fortified rifles. I test the defence with a 5/5 cavalry, who retreats from a 3/3 rifle having inflicted zero damage. We'll have to bombard them down before attacking.

At Nichinan our cavalry kills the red-lined counter-attacker.

Baekje now has Nationalism, and 20 gpt to spend. I generously decide to sell them horses and saltpeter to help them fight the Han. This rather than luxuries, whitch they also need, as we don't want them getting too rich. Nationalism is not available, even for Electricity.

Upgrade some footmen to muskets. We now need 10% entertainment tax and a lot of retuning of the cities. I think we had some war happiness after Han declared war, and that was cancelled when we made peace with Baekje.

IBT
Han sinks two of our inronclads :(
A Han frigate sinks against our Cannon Kublai
Baekje expels our ships
Saiki population has reduced to 6 from 9 - conscription plus settler?

Turn 3 - 1365 AD
Bombard Saiki down to pop 4, red-line and kill two defenders, but I don't have enough attackers to finish this turn. We now have a huge cannon stack here - wish it were at Nishi-ku!

Bombard Nishi-ku. It had reduced to pop 4 all by itself - conscription and a settler? Cannon reduce it to pop 3, but only take one hit point off a rifle. I'll wait for the stars to align better.

Notice that Han has wiped out several Baekje cities.

IBT
Shimazu ships in a cavalry to reinforce Saiki.
A Shimazu cavalry slips out of Nishi-ku and kills a 4/4 cavalry at Kunamoto, and a 4/4 rifle also arrives at the gates of Kunamoto.

Trn 4 - 1370 AD
Cannon in Kunamoto, on their way to Nishi-ku, red-line the 4/4 rifle outside the city, and a 4/4 cavalry finishes him off.

Nishi-ku. They only have two 3/3 rifles and they bombard to 2/3 and 1/3 this time. This is our chance, and the cavalry capture the city with no losses.

Saiki. They only have two cavalry after the previous attack, our cannon red line them and our cavalry finish them off and capture the city. I keep it to give fast access to the next two cities.

Bombard two Han ironclads off New Suzuka and red line them.

IBT
Shimazu ironclad appears and sinks our cannon kublai
A Han ironclad sinks our ironclad
2 Han frigates attack our cannon kublai. One sinks the other wins.
A Han ironclad/cannon kublai approach Sanda off our east coast.
New Kasugai, our west coast island city, finally gets its harbour!
The palace gets an upgrade.

Turn 5 1375 AD
Bombard Hizen to two red lined rifles and our cavalry raze it.
Shimazu will still not give us Nagasaki for peace. They have three cities left.

Adjust the slider to 4.6.0 for Scientific Method next turn. Zero lux tax and more city adjustments as we now have ivory. Nobunga expresses impatience, and it's been a trying time avoiding elite wins.

Baekje now has only six cities left. The Han now have Kunsan and the Colossus.

IBT
A Shimazu ironclad attacks our cannon kublai and sinks.
Shimazu land a single cavalry.
The Han lands n Army nest to Sanda. We currently have a Samurai and a Kensei Oda on the island, but i have prepared some reinforcements. Let's hope they are sufficient, and can get there in time.

Scientific method is completed. Switch to Atomic Theory.

Turn 6 - 1360 AD
Our cavalry kills the Shimazu cavalry.
Switch Azuchi to Theory of Evolution, and Nobunga waves his magic wand to fill the empty production box with 600 shields.

Our reinforcements arrive in Sanda. The first 4/4 cavalry dies, but reduces the Han army of 2 cavalry + 1 rider to 5/12. The second 4/4 cavalry is red lined, but kills the army and gets a field promotion to elite.

Workers complete a second coal hook-up for security.

Slider to 10.0.0 - no science, as we are going to get the next two techs for free. This iwll add 476 gold to our treasury this turn.

IBT
A Shmazu Kensei attacks our stack and dies.
No activity from Han
Theory of Evolution completed, Atomic Theory completed, Electronics completed. Research Industrialisation next.

Turn 7 - 1385 AD
First phase bombardment of Kanoya takes out the barracks.
A Canon Kublai near the north pole spots a Shimazu frigate and junk - a Settler?

IBT
Another Shimazu Kensei appears from Katoya.


Han wants to talk. Offers peace, but he won't give anything just for peace, and I don't want to trade Atomic Theory yet. Hoover is 13 turns away, and I'd rather not have him competing for it. I tell him to go away, and he starts bombing our coastline.

[Turn 8 - 1390 AD[/b]
Bombard Katoya down from pop 12 to pop 10 and red line its defenders. Four cavalry units take it without loss. I decide to raze it as it's still pop 9.
A cavalry kills the solitary Kensei.

And the bad news is - I didn't spot that the capital would jump to ... one-tile-island Nagasaki! So we'll need marines after all. They have two cities left, plus whatever is floating around in that junk.

Han has switched to Communism. I didn't notice the anarchy period, probably because I wasn't checking F3.

IBT
Han damages som more coastal roads and rails.

Turn 10 - 1400 AD
Three cavalry wins against rifles at Hitoyoshi to capture the last available Shimazu city, and we win another Leader [dance]

Firaxis Score = 4713

Here's the save It's at http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads6/MB4A_1400AD.SAV.zip in case you can't see the link.
 
Karasu UP
Smackster On deck
Sir Bugsy
AlanH Off to bed, finally

Firaxis score at 1400 AD = 4713
 
Well done, it surely was a hard set of turns -if only from a physical point of view... :eek:
And lots of good news...

I cannot download the save right now. I will give it a look later this evening.

Good 'night' everybody... ;)
 
It was too late for me to write a coherent post-campaign report in my previous post, but as Karasu has still to get it, here are some notes to help his preflight:

Our Leader
- He's in the north of our continent right now, on the main Shimazu island. You may want to get one of the Cannon Kublai round to the straits to ship him back to the mainland. They are all deployed away from the straits right now.

- When I switched Ina to Hoover I changed Kofu's pre-build to a Palace, thinking it might be able to pre-build something else. However, I decided it was too early for the Modern era wonders, so I have reverted it to Military Academy, complete next turn. We'll be able to build armies any time we want them after the next turn.

- We are not likely to have many elite battles in the next few turns, so there's no need to use the leader instantly. I would suggest using him to rush a University is one of the high-beaker cities such as Moriyama-ku or Alanville. They finish their current builds in two turns from now. Alanville is already making over 20 beakers per turn, so when it finishes its library in two turns, and with a leader-built university, it will give us an extra 20 beakers per turn.

War and Peace
- There are no imminint threats that I am aware of right now, other than the pillaging Han ships. Our workers can keep up, but the Han have been canny enough to avoid staying in cannon range since I did some earlier damage.

- We still have 10 turns to go on our MA with Baekje, but The Han will give us two good techs in exchange for peace and Atomic Theory and that deal may not be avalable for long. I didn't do it as it was my last turn, but I would suggest going for it soon.

- The MA is not tied to either of our gpt deals with Baekje, so as long as they don't declare we'll keep those at 45 gpt, until the Baekje are destroyed. Even if it upsets the Baekje enough to declare I can't see them giving us any trouble as they are down to four cities now.

- The Han would still have to research Electronics before they start Hoover, so our current Hoover ETA of 10 turns is probably safe - minimum 4 turns for Electronics plus 800 shields to build. Even with AI discounts I can't see them doing 800 shields in 6 turns. The only counter argument to peace is that war has pushed the Han into Communism right now.

- We may want to stay at war with the Shimazu so that we can eliminate any new settlements they create in our no-mans land.

- Sorry about that Shimazu one-tile capital, but the Kamikaze might solve that problem when we get to Flight. A unique opportunity to test it's capabilities. :D

It's The Economy, stupid
- If we make peace and get Industrialisation and Replaceable Parts we can probably switch to Democracy now. That would allow us to push on with tile improvements and factories to exploit Hoover. We could then investigate their best wonder city's production rate, and if we are OK on Hoover we might be able to trade Electronics for some more key techs. The Han already have Sanitation, and probably Corporation.

- An alternative is to go to RP and Sanitation in the peace deal, as we have Industrialisation in 5 turns on our own research. With this option we could build hospitals to grow our core, but we wouldn't be able to trade for more techs using Electronics for a while. I prefer the first option.

- There shouldn't be a war weariness hit from Shimazu, as we can leave their territory, and avoid conflicts generally.

- I've been moving pop 12 core cities from irrigation to shields. We'd probably get more than enough from the extra gpt per tile in Democracy to cover our current unit maintenance costs of about 250 gpt.

Current deployments
Our forces are scattered at the moment. It would probably be a good idea to gather them together into a few main centres where we can find them all if we need them. We also need to keep security forces on the islands - some cavalry and cannon to repel borders. The ex-Chosogabe island is particularly vulnerable right now, we should rearrange the defences our other small islands as well. After we get Replaceable parts we can deploy some Infantry. Worker gangs are probably not optimum. I've been rearranging irrigation and mines, and working some hills and mountains and un-roaded tiles to increase productivity, so Bugsy's neat stacks of 12-slave-equivalent that I inherited may be a bit disrupted.

An interesting set of turns ahead. Builder rather than warmonger for a spell, I think. Good luck, Karasu. Shout if you need any more suggestions, or if you disagree with any of the above.
 
For future reference, my guess is that the option to take Nagasaki for peace became more difficult to achieve as we deleted more Shimazu cities. Effectively, if I am right, the AI's valuation of each remaining city increases as they have less of them. That's why it was so difficult to grab the Chosogabe one before. With 20:20 hindsight, now that we know how it goes, we should maybe have sued for it when we had the chance. Not a criticism, Sir Bugsy - I'm learning new stuff here.

One afterthought - we could lose one or two ex Shimazu cities to flips, particularly Niimi on the adjacent island, which has a cultural overlap. So keep their garrisons to a single unit, and station troops outside to retake or raze them.
 
No criticism taken, except trying to learn from what's happening. Just when you think you understand what is happening with this game it throws you a curve. I guess that's one reason why we enjoy it so much.

In regards to our options going forward, I think it maybe better to keep the Han in Communism as long as possible.

As we continue to add universities and libraries our beaker production will go up. Getting the Corporation will allow the building of stock exchanges. That will give us a nice boost in income which in turn gets more money into our science effort. We probably need to ensure that each of our core cities have all three money making buildings (market, bank, exchange) and both science buildings (library, univ.) plus research labs when the time comes.

If this was a solo game I'd stay at war with the Han as long as possible, my $0.02.

Bugs

BTW, an excellent set of turns Alan. Way to pluck our butts out of the fire.
 
Originally posted by Sir Bugsy
In regards to our options going forward, I think it maybe better to keep the Han in Communism as long as possible.
Click to expand...
Sorry, I disagree.

We need to conquer the Han as fast as possible, so our primary mission now has to be to get to Tanks early enough to blitz them out of existence before they can build lots of Mech Infantry. That means we need productivity to build tanks in quantity, and tech parity with the Han to be able to exploit their attack advantage. Now is not the time to slow this game down, or we'll lose the competition to an earlier conquest date. I can't see a quicker way than this to get there.

I have no real feel for how much Communism damages them as I've never tried to play under it, though of course it must. However, by suing for peace and trading on our current tech advantage we get a hugely powerful economic boost, and even if we were not in a race for a quick conquest, I find it hard to believe that all the following advantages of doing so would be outweighed by slowing the Han down a bit instead:

- a switch to Democracy without paying an arm and a leg for war weariness

- up to three more free techs on the path to tanks

- instant access to factories, and with Hoover in ten turns, those will increase our shield output by 75%.

- 50% increase in worker productivity

- Sanitation to allow us to grow core cities to pop 20. Pop 20 gives us another 50% to 70% hike in productivity compared to pop 12.

As we continue to add universities and libraries our beaker production will go up. Getting the Corporation will allow the building of stock exchanges. That will give us a nice boost in income which in turn gets more money into our science effort. We probably need to ensure that each of our core cities have all three money making buildings (market, bank, exchange) and both science buildings (library, univ.) plus research labs when the time comes.
Click to expand...
As I understand it, banks and stock exchange only multiply the tax revenue, not the research beakers. We are currently running 1.9.0 on the slider. That means 90% of our gold production is being turned into beakers and needs to be multiplied by 2 wherever possible by library plus university. Only the other 10% would be enhanced by banks or other financial buildings, so the return on investment in those buildings is much lower. Of course we need markets just to keep the population happy, and we need tax revenue into the treasury to pay for upkeep and upgrades, but the first priority in our core has to be libraries and universities. Second priority will be factories for fast tank and artillery and naval production as soon as possible.
 
I've just done a quick Jason analysis to find out what MB's chart differences really mean in the first post. Assuming the Jason score parameters for this game remain the same under our changed civ and starting point, at the current date and score level on the Jason curve a 10 turn difference in conquest date is equivalent to about 350 Jason points, or about 700 Firaxis points.

From A Space Oddity's chart, I estimate our current lead on the MB4B and MB4PTW teams is around 500 and 1900 Firaxis points respectively. That means if they beat us to conquest by more than about 7 turns or 25 turns respectively they'll overcome their current points disadvantage. Neither of these margins is comfortable, and 7 turns is really negligible, so don't assume the Firaxis score chart says it all. We need to keep on our toes to achieve a quick victory.

[Edited to correct an arithmetic error]
 
Alan,
you make an excellent point with regards to slowing down the game. After your argument, I'd have to agree with you. It is very logical. Plus the Han will stay in Communism as long as they are at war and then probably a turn or two more.

The banks and exchanges start to make a huge difference when you start bringing your sliders down as you approach 1 turn left on your research. You then get a large bankroll so you could run a deficit on your next research project if necessary. Or use for upgrades/rushes.
 
You're right, but you only change your tech slider for 1 turn in 10. One or two turns of zero research, even at at our current rate, would provide nearly 500 gpt for an upgrade program. I'm not saying don't do banks at all, just make sure they come after universities and factories in our top cities.

If we can finish this before the modern age, we only have some Cannon, Cannon Kublai and musket upgrades. everthing else we need is new build tanks, planes, ships. And we have Leo's to reduce those costs. Rushes are less important if you have high shield productivity.
 
Another technique that you should seriously look at in this situation is "short-rushing" as it can be used to maximize your applied shield output.

An example is producing a tank in a city that has a shield output of 24 shield per turn. If you do nothing, the production of a 100 shield tank will take 5 turns and cost you 120 shields. If you wait until after the first turn and then set the production to a settler and hurry it with a boost of 24 gold in cash and then change the production back to a tank before the turn completes then you will end up with a net cost for the tank of 102 shields + 24 gold and you will have produced the tank one turn earlier.

You can find numerous combinations of this techniques to save you a few turns in the cycle while still maximizing the shield and gold output of your cities.

When playing a game in the late industrial age where you now find yourselves, I will usually outproduce other players by an extra 20 to 25% by making strategic use of short rushing.
 
Cracker,

Thanks that is great advice, I think we certainly need to use every trick we can to produce tanks when they become available. I never used that short rush trick before, but looking at your explanation I can see how valuable it will be.

We should probably come up with a target list of cities nearer the time. Hopefully I'll have more time to play my turns in the future than I did last time, but it will help me to come up with a city check list for tank building.

Smackster
 
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