MB4 - GOTM24 Redux [civ3] Roster A

[Karasu]

Had a terrible first-day-back-to-work today, even though the mess was anticipated (and indeed looming on this very day from a couple of meetings we had late last year)...

So, not too much time for civving. Anyway, I tend to agree with Alan's analysis.
I think we need a break to regroup and try to get to tanks as soon as possible. Wiping the Han in a short time with Cavalry is not reasonable, not even with lots of Artilleries.
I will look at the game trying to maximise our tech pace (if I manage, which of course is not granted! ).

I wouldn't worry much about the Han going back to Democracy and to a fast tech rate -they'll soon be going to switch to Communism again

From this point of view, there is also no reason to worry about the Shimazu island-capital. That has stopped being the driver ofour finish date for some time, I think.

Good move also on Military Academy. I think I will start preparing a nice Infantry Army to support a pillaging expedition on Beijing. My feeling is that, whatever happens in the next 10 - 20 turns, we will need this anyhow.
A good defending force, with some Cavalry units along, can completely pillage 2 - 4 tiles per turn...

More later (I hope!)

 

[AlanH]

Excellent advice from Cracker - thanks, I've never really got to grips with short rushing, but your example makes it all much clearer.

@Karasu: I think I oversimplified the current tech trading options. Looking at the save again, we would have to give Han a lot of cash with peace and Atomic Theory to get RP and Industrialisation, and I don't like giving away hard-earned gold. We can get one of these techs plus Sanitation, though. So I would recommend we trade peace and Atomic Theory for Industrialisation and Sanitation first. This will allow us to see if Corporation is available and judge the next options. For sure we would be able to get RP for Electronics, and hopefully more. Or we can hold out for a few turns before we trade Electronics, and see what comes up next from the Han's research labs.

We may also have some tech trading opportunities with the Baekje. If you are keen to get Nationalism to allow drafting/conscription, for example, we could probably trade with Baekje for it with the techs we get from the Han. It's too late now for the Baekje to benefit from anything we sell them, as they are already doomed, so it's effectively a free ride.

Also, I suspect peace with Shimazu will be necessary to allow us to switch to Democracy without war weariness. Not a problem, because it looks as if they'll give us 9 gpt for peace. We can always turn the pointy sticks back on them later if we need to keep them in line.

 

[smackster]

How many luxuries do we have now? It did strike me that our home continent had very few of them. No doubt a cracker design intent.

 

[Sir Bugsy]

If memory serves correctly, each of the civs had the chance for a monopoly on a lux. We should have most luxes available excapt for what's on the Korean peninsula.

I've used short rushing before, but never to the extent that cracker is talking about. I can see how it can make a huge difference.

BTW - I case everyone wasn't already thinking in this direction. flight after Tanks. A couple of carriers worth of bombers could quickly isolate the Han capitol.

 

[AlanH]

Originally posted by smackster
How many luxuries do we have now? It did strike me that our home continent had very few of them. No doubt a cracker design intent.

We reached six during my turns when we snagged Shimoda's ivory. We're ding quite well, with ivory and furs from Shimoda-land, wines, dyes, silks and wool. Baekje has, or had, incense for sale, but at huge prices because of the size of our empire. The Han have incense, spices and gems and none of the ones we have. I recommend we keep it that way as it puts us ahead of them on happy faces.

 

[Karasu]

Yes. We have six luxes, and lux trading is not the simplest thing given our reputation...

I started playing yesterday evening, but it took forever to complete the first turn.

Pre-Turn
Straight to tech trading:
Han would give us 70 gp and 2 gpt for peace alone.
For Atomic Theory, they will also give us:
1. Industrialization, Sanitation and 24 gpt (all they have) plus RoP and maps
2. Sanitation and Replaceable Parts and 62 gp
3. Industrialization and Replaceable Parts for 415 gp

It ultimately comes down to seeing whether the Han have or not The Corporation.

All choices and combinations have pros and cons. After frying my last remaining neuron, I decide to go for option 1 because:
- We can immediately start building factories and hospitals
- If the Han have The Corporation, I can subsequently trade Electronics for that plus Replaceable Parts. If they don't, we will research it on our own and trade it for RP within (hopefully) a few turns. We can use this trade to get some luxury resources, if we are really desperate for some happiness...
- We get all the gold we can get

On the negative side,
- We don't get full value from Atomic Theory, but there is nothing we can do about that and I don't think we can delay things in the hope of an easier future
- We haven't got RP to gift to the Baekjefor their war, but I think their doom is written already whatever we do right now.
- A gpt deal with the Han will slow down their research should they revert to Democracy shortly, but we have no control on this. Besides, our only remaining trading chance is Steel - Refining, and we cannot assume that the Han are going to research the other tech in time for us to trade for it.

I also decide not to make the RoP deal. True, a massive RoP rape would really speed up our conquest, but it seems too early for it right now; and in the meantime, we risk having Han units roam freely through our lands and settle in the Shimazu islands.
We can still consider it for the future, though...

So, here we go.
Make peace with the Han for the gold he can spare.
Trade Atomic Theory for Industrialization, Sanitation and all his remaining gps.
We also get Music Theory in the process.

Go back to the Han and...
...no. No Corporation there.
Start research on The Corporation. Due in 7 turns at 100% science, -7 gpt.

And now, the final act of the show: make peace with Shimazu (for all their income) and switch to Democracy.

Press Enter


IT
Hamamatsu completes the Military Academy


Turn 1 - 1405 AD
Start researching The Corporation. At 70% science, it is due in 6 turns at -27 gpt.

Our present domestic situation:
Income = 2231 (2078 from cities + 73 from taxmen + 80 from other civs)
Expenses = 2253 (615 science, 1235 corruption, 252 unit costs, 151 maintenance)

Not too bad. I feared a worse situation, moneywise.
Let us get on with the building phase.

Kasugai: Cavalry - Marketplace
Cracker San: Cannon - Library
Koromo: Ironclad - Factory
Shimoda, Kumano, Karasu, Ise, Yokkaichi, Moriyama-ku, Handa, Komaki: Cavalry - Factory
Ako: Frigate - Marketplace
New Koromo: Cavalry - Library
Alanville: Cavalry - Hospital
Ichinomiya: Cavalry - Library

Ogaki switched to Aqueduct
Disband two Kensai Oda in Azuchi to get the Library completed one turn earlier

Sold a few temples in the smallest towns to save something on maintenance costs.

Disband all our Kensai Oda in choice cities to hurry production and improve our income. Disband a few Cavalries as well -we now have 39.

We are now earning 11 gpt.

Regroup our cavalries. 20 are now in our capital, 19 more in Shimazu province or on the smaller islands.

All the cannons are in two stacks. One in Shimazu and the other in Tateyama.

It will take between 9 and 15 turns to have Factories in our most productive cities. With some rushing (and short-rushing!) we should be able to reduce this time.
Besides, some of the cities can get a few extra shields from improving their tiles.

I do not want to depend on the Han for The Corporation, so I will keep science at the maximum sustainable rate.
We may have to slow it down a bit later on, as we will need gold for rushing and upgrading.


IT
Azuchi: Library - Factory
Nara: Cannon - Marketplace
Ichinomiya: Library - Factory
New Ise: Cannon - Library

Baekje are down to two cities.


Turn 2 - 1410 AD
Workers are massively used to improve around core cities.


IT
Fukuyama, Kui: Cannon - Marketplace
Ogaki: Aqueduct - Factory
ControlFreakVille: Barracks - Settler


Turn 3 - 1415 AD
Switch Nagoya to Factory.
Workers work.

The Baekje are still holding on to this game. I give them Industrialization and Electricity for Nationalism and 17 gold pieces.

The Han have The Corporation, while we are three turns away from it. They are still in Communism, so they must have got really close to it when they changed government.

Sorry about this. Had I anticipated it, I would have kept science at zero for these three turns, and we would now be about 1800 gp richer.

They won't trade The Corporation and Replaceable Parts for Electronics alone, though.

I think we should probably trade Electronics for RP now and discover The Corporation on our own.
I wouldn't count on the Han for Steel or Refining, at this point.

Han luxuries are tradable too, but not together with an interesting tech.

Before next turn, I will also review the most corrupt cities and see if I can set them to wealth.

 

[AlanH]

Originally posted by Karasu
I started playing yesterday evening, but it took forever to complete the first turn.

I know how it feeels. It's interesting that we seem to reach these major watersheds right on the ten-turn mark

Good work on the trading. We could have predicted that Han would be working on Corporation, and I'm surprised they didn't have it already. I guess they spent time on Espionage first. Some of that 1800 plus Electronics would probably have got us Corporation and RP, but we had no way of knowing the situation, and I'd certainly have run science at max as well in your situation. If you keep going, you may be able to trade for Corporation a turn or two early, as the price comes down as you research it. But we then have to decide whether shaving a turn or two off our research is worth saving Han at least four turns for Electronics. Probably not! .

Youll find I had a couple of Explorers in build as you review build orders. I figured they would be good pillagers, but feel free to repurpose those cities.

Bansai!

 

[AlanH]

Sorry! My last post included a spot of early morning ! If we can hold for a turn or two and get Corporation plus RP for Electronics, as the Corporation price reduces, then we save a turn or two of research vs. trading now and completingCoproration ourselves.

 

[Karasu]

Turn 3 - 1900 AD Reprise
Spend some money to speed up Factories in Hamamatsu and Kumano.
We really need more gold...

Hurry Marketplace in Iida
Switch several cities to Wealth


IT
Nara: Cannon - Wealth
Kagoshima: Barracks - Wealth
Fuji: Worker - Library (in case we have spare money to rush it...)
Takamatsu: Frigate - Wealth
Iida: Marketplace - Library
Okazaki: Marketplace - Factory
Okayama: Cannon - Wealth
Wakayama: Cannon - Library
Hikone: Frigate - Wealth


Turn 4 - 1420 AD
Baekje are down to their last city.

Decrease science a notch to get Corporation in 2 at +124 gpt
The Han are not going to give us TC + RP for Electronics, so I will hold the trade for RP for a while: if the Han switch back to Democracy after wiping the Baekje, we may still have another trading opportunity.


IT
The rampaging Han forces have destroyed the Baekje

Hiroshima, Yamaguchi, Kure, Matsue: Cannon - Wealth
Chiba: Worker - Wealth
Kasugai: Marketplace - Factory
Kumano: Factory - Marketplace


Turn 5 - 1425 AD
Science slider down to 40%. The Corporation and 307 gp are coming next turn.
I spend some money to speed up Factory in Kofu.

Kuki finally reaches our mainland.


IT
We discover The Corporation. What next? Roll dice, and start Refining at 70% science. Due in 9 turns , -7 gpt.

Hamamatsu: Factory - Library
Hino: Cannon Kublai - Wealth
Suzuka: Worker - Wealth


Turn 6 - 1430 AD
And Kuki? There is not much for him to do right now.
By the looks the best immediate use we can make of him is an hospital in Hamamatsu or in Kofu (size 12, high production, fast growth).

As soon as some of the more time-consuming improvement around Nagoya and Yokkachi is made, some of our workers would be better joined to the core cities.

The Han are still in Communism and almost broke.


IT
Kofu: Factory - Hospital
New Nagoya: Cannon - Library

Switch Gengisgawa to Library


Turn 7 - 1435 AD
Unnoticed, a Han Settler with its escorting Infantry has landed on the Niimi island.

Our workers work
Kuki's magic is used to rush an Hospital in Kofu.


IT
Hamamatsu: Library - Hospital
Kofu: Hospital - University
Kunamoto: Barracks - Wealth
Shimoda: Factory - Stock Exchange (can be used as a pre-build)


Turn 8 - 1440 AD
Worker movements


IT
New Koromo: Library - Rifleman (meant as a prebuild)
Kumano: Marketplace - University
Himeji: Library - Rifleman (same as above)
AlanHwick: Ironclad - Library
New Hikone: Cannon - Wealth


Turn 9 - 14445 AD
More worker movements
I neglected a bit settling the Shimazu island. Now I switch some cities in our northern area to Settlers.
We are still 223 tiles from domination, and it may be worth trying to close some of the Shimazu coast at least.


IT
Yokkachi: Factory - Hospital
Sir Bugsy: Marketplace - Library
Bizen: Settler - Wealth
Cracker san: Library - Marketplace


Turn 10 - 1450 AD
Last worker movements.


Conclusions
Phew... these 10 turns were the longest hundred turns I ever played!

The infrastructure is improving, and we are quickly improving our productivity.
Some core cities needed to be improved quite badly, and there is still some work to do.
Actually, the workers in Chosogabe and Shimazu are there to be transported to our mainland (watch out for possible barbarian appearances in Shimazu!). A settler is also waiting for a hitch to Shimazu.

I haven't traded for RP yet, nor have I started preparing our pillaging force for Beijing.
I am not totally sure that our military (especially in Shimazu) could cope with a Han retaliation with Infantry, so I preferred to wait a bit and build something in the meantime, using the money for some short rushing (couldn't avoid that, after hearing Cracker's booming voice... ).
Additionally, I didn't want to risk the Hoover Dam (unlikely as it might have been).

Of course, as soon as we feel that the time is come for our nice little raid... :devil2:
Besides, we may want to strenghten our military by upgrading some units to Infantry, as it should lower the chances of a sneak attack by the Han (I mean. *We* are the ones who will sneak-attack them! )


Ehm, Mad... our score in 1450 AD is 5067 points

The Baby

 

[Karasu]

No bloating this time
Let's keep a low profile...

 

[smackster]

I got it, hmmm I'm meant to be doing household chores tonight, I wonder how far I'll get with them. Lets see if I can sweep this down tonight.

Smackster

 

[Sir Bugsy]

Mapstat says we're 223 tiles from domination.

 

[AlanH]

Karasu Well earned rest, flat out on the bench
Smackster UP
Sir Bugsy On deck
AlanH

Firaxis score at 1450 AD = 5067

An excellent set of consolidation turns Karasu. I'm sure that splitting attention between war and economy takes its toll. So now we can focus on teh latter for a bit.

Re. domination, I think we should be able to fill in the larger Shimazu spaces and still have well over 150 tiles clearance from the limit. We don't even need to join up the dots to prevent barbs or the Han from settling. Remember there are only nine tiles per unexpanded city, and we aren't going to add much more in our home continent now. So our current peaceful phase is secure from a domination win. When we start taking the fight to the Han it'll be a scorched earth fight and we'll keep mimimal cities on the other continent,. If we use settlers to push the Han's borders back we can abandon most of them once our front line has moved forward. If we take plenty of workers with us and use new captives as well we can rail back to a few barracks for recovery. Once we have them on the run we can also start abandoning a few home continent cities if the need arises.

Good luck Smackster, we're expecting Hoover, Refining and RP during your turns, so lots of interesting production and upgrade opportunities. It'll be interesting to see where the oil and rubber are. We'd better have some! Surely Cracker wouldn't have done that to us ... would he?

 

[Sir Bugsy]

Since we are playing what originally was AI territory, I'm sure we have some. Now if there wasn't some thing in the former Korean lands.... that's cracker. Maybe that's why the Koreans bowed out very early.

 

[smackster]

When do I take RP of them. Do I wait until I can get a better deal than that for Electronics?

 

[Sir Bugsy]

That's an interesting question. Shimazu isn't in the tech race, so everything is at monopoly rates plus the AI advantage, minus whatever research they've done. Might even want to explore a steal attempt when we think we're prepared for war.

Stock exchanges won't be bad, since we need five in order to build Wall Street. Or shouldn't we be thinking about such things.

Something else to throw on the table....mobilization?

 

[smackster]

No mobilization in GOTM

 

[Sir Bugsy]

*In Rosanne Rosannadanna voice* "Never mind"

 

[AlanH]

If Karasu tried to get Corporation plus RP for Electronics right up to the last turn of our Corp research, and failed, then it means the Han don't value Electronics much above RP, so you might as well take it now before they devalue Electronics by starting to research that.

In any case, any techs they have on offer from now on are only going to be more expensive than Corporation, so I can't see us getting RP plus anything for Electronics now. We can't take lux to make up the price, and I guess they are still broke so no cash either.

 

[AlanH]

In fact I would suggest doing it right now, as the value of Electronics might go down next turn, when we announce the Hoover Dam to the world.