MB4 - GOTM24 Redux [civ3] Roster A

[Karasu]

Sorry, mates.
I've been awfully busy with my last day at work. Imagine, people arranging yet another meeting while everybody is trying to sneak out of their office...

Anyway, I will be able to look at the game this evening. My feeling is that the Shimazu campaign may not be that straightforward, if we have cavalries directly face their rifles (assuming they started building some): that's why I think we really need more cannons.

If the Baekje haven't reached Industrial Age yet, they should be an easy conquest, and possibly the last thing our Cavalries will do. We will leave some on home soil for aggressive defense, but they won't be too useful (without cannons!) if someone starts landing rifles and infantry.

For the Han, we will definitely have Tanks -or, depending on how fast we are in conquering the others, well-defended cavalries with LOTS of artillery may still do it... We'll see though.

I'll post something more later today. Cheers...

 

[AlanH]

Originally posted by Sir Bugsy
It isn't rocket science, it's just a matter of doing the math. Steal will cost $x. Purchasing will cost $X+1500.

I think it's a little more complex than that. First you have to have to factor in the costs of Nationalism, Communism and Espionage which you otherwise wouldn't even bother with. And there's a significant probability of failure, in which case the theft cost is doubled ... or tripled, and you get into a shooting war, probably with the Han. Or did I miss something?

 

[AlanH]

Originally posted by Karasu
My feeling is that the Shimazu campaign may not be that straightforward, if we have cavalries directly face their rifles (assuming they started building some): that's why I think we really need more cannons.

Sure our losses will be higher against rifles, but I've been successful in the past using Cavalry to repel borders:

1. The odds are not that bad. Defence factor 6 vs. Cavalry attack 6 and retreat puts the odds in favour of the Cavalry as long as we have sufficient within range. We just have to make sure they don't capture a city.

2. The AI seems to be incapable of landing multiple transports simultaneously. They will usually only drop one rifle with a couple of attackers, so as long as we position ourselves well and set neat traps we can pick them off as they land.

3. We can station workers on coastal hills and forests near our bait areas to make them land on defence factor 1 tiles.

4. If we hit the Shimazu and Mori hard enough on their home turf they will concentrate their efforts on homeland defence and leave us alone. The bigger danger is a sneak attack from the other continent, but that will be very uncoordinated.

Agreed about needing cannon for our invasions. The Shimazu cities are all above pop 6, so we should use bombardment to reduce the defence forces and weaken the populations. How many would you be comfortable with? We probably already have most the cavalry we need, so you should be able to knock out another dozen or so cannon quite fast from our core cities.

BTW, remember we have a cavalry army. Put that in an invasion force and with defence factor 9 and it will deter a counter-attack pretty effectively.

 

[Karasu]

Sorry for the delay... It is surely easier to find time for Civ while work goes on than when I'm at home and enjoying friends and relative...

Anyway, here we go.


Pre-turn
We have a weak military compared to the Han, which means that they do have Rifles (and, whoa, are also up several techs).
Shimazu are up some interesting techs too, and I believe we can extort them some.

Switch Ina, Koromo, Ichinomiya, Karasu and Ise to Cannon.
We need more defensive units too.

The Shimazu seem not to have any Saltpeter in our lands: they must be getting it by trade with Han. My idea is to make a single massive landing close to the Shimazu Capital and pillage the roads all around it. This way, they should no longer be able to use any resources.
From there, we will go on killing and burning...

Hit Enter.


IT - The Shimazu land a Cavalry next to Sanda

Nara: Settler - Cannon
Shimoda: Heroic Epic - Marketplace
New Suzuka: Temple - Worker
Moriyama-ku: Cavalry - Cannon
Kasugai: Cavalry - Musketman
New Nagoya: Cannon Kublai - Cannon


Turn 1 - 1160 AD
New Komaki founded - Flagged Footman

The Oda Kensai in Sanda kills the lonely Shimazu Cavalry

Move troops towards Aki and Tokushima

Hurry Temple in Matsue, Fukuyama, Kui, Okayama, Hiroshima
Hurry Barracks in Kochi
Hurry Cannon in Kure and Yamaguchi and Kyoto


IT - Shimazu bombard our coast from the seas.
They are also sending a Junk + Frigate.

Kyoto, Yamaguchi, Kure: Cannon - Cannon
Hiroshima, Matsue, Fukuyama, Okayama, Kui: Temple - Cannon
Hamamatsu: Cavalry - Cavalry
Kochi: Barracks - Musketman (can be rushed or changed later on)
Wakayama: Courthouse - Cannon
Sagamihara: Harbour - Cannon Kublai
Mito: Worker - Cannon
Smackster: Marketplace - Musketman
New Ise, New Handa: Temple - Cannon

The Han are building Universal Suffrage...


Turn 2 - 1170 AD
Sink a Shimazu Frigate loosing a Cannon Kublai.

More troop movements


IT - Lost a Kublai to Shimazu Frigate...

Nagoya: Cavalry - Cannon
Okazaki: Cavalry - Cannon
Komaki: Cavalry - Musketman
Kumano: Cavalry - Musketman



Turn 3 - 1180 AD
Hurried Harbour in Alanville
Still moving units towards Tokushima


IT - Two Shimazu Cavalries land next to Matsuyama

Ise: Cannon - Musketman
Koromo: Cannon - Cannon
New Koromo: Courthouse - Cannon
Alanville: Harbour - Frigate
Ichinomiya: Cannon - Musketman
Sir Bugsy: Cannon Kublai - Cannon
Ina: Cannon - Cannon
Karasu: Cannon - Cannon
Cracker San: Cavalry - Cannon


Turn 4 - 1190 AD
Shimazu Cavalries killed. Oda Cavalry promoted to Elite.


IT - Another Cavalry lands, and some more bombarding.

Azuchi: Cavalry - Cannon
Handa: Cavalry - Cannon
Yokkachi: Cavalry - Cannon
Moriyama-Ku: Cannon - Musketman


Turn 5 - 1200 AD
I can finally bring research down a notch to 70%. Steam Power due in one turn with positive cash flow (+14 gpt)

Hurried Harbour in Ako
Hurried Frigate in Hikone


IT - We loose three Kublai to Shimazu, who loose one Frigate in the attack

Ogaki: Cavalry - Cannon
Suzuka: Cavalry - Musketman
Hikone: Frigate - Frigate
Ako: Harbour - Frigate


Turn 6 - 1210 AD
Discover Steam Power, now Electricity. Funabashi could build the Iron Works, btw.

Sign peace deal with Shimazu, not to risk loosing loaded vessels in the next turns.
And the ships set sail to Kyushu...

Workers start railroading.


IT - Unknown to us, the Baekje have placed a city (Suwon) on the former Chosogabe island. I was sending a settler just there, but they beat me to the spot. Will found a city next to their border and start putting some cultural pressure (which won't work, but will give us a nice diversion before we conquer it... ).

Hamamatsu: Cavalry - Worker
Nagoya: Cannon - Cannon
Kasugai: Musketman - Musketman
Kumano: Musketman - Musketman


Turn 7 - 1220 AD
Our invasion force will land next turn.


IT - Hamamatsu: Worker - Cannon
Kofu: Marketplace - Worker
Ise: Musketman - Musketman
Handa: Cannon - Cannon
Ina: Cannon - Cannon
Karasu: Cannon - Cannon


Turn 8 - 1230 AD
New Hikone founded - Cannon
Rushed a few temples in former Chosogabe lands.

Our big stack lands off Kagoshima.
I fumble with the keyboard while taking back the Cannon Kublais. Let's hope they don't sink...


IT - Predictably, Shimazu doesn't like our troops on his lands.
Regrettably, we won't leave...
Consequently, it's war again.

They don't dare attack our massed troops. This should make the pillaging a bit safer.

Matsuyama: Temple - Worker
Azuchi: Cannon - Cannon
Iida: Cannon - Cannon
Okazaki: Cannon - Cannon
Shimoda: Marketplace - Musketman
Koromo: Cannon - Cannon
New Kita-ku: Temple - Worker
New Koromo: Cannon - Cannon
Yokkachi: Cannon - Musketman
Komaki: Musketman - Musketman
Smackster: Musketman - Cannon
Himeji: Cannon - Aqueduct
AlanHwick: Courthouse - Aqueduct
New Moriyama-ku: Temple - Worker


Turn 9 - 1240 AD
Sekigahara founded - Temple
Ships are coming back.

Changed production in some southern cities from cannon to worker. We need more to speed up railroad construction.

I am tempted to split the attacking force in two parts to speed up the pillaging and start some city razing in the meantime, but we have not many good defensive units, and I am a bit worried that cavalry attacks may decimate our army. I saw many of them move around from the coast a couple of turns ago.

I begin our guerrilla action with the bombardment of a few Samurai and Musketman that surround our landing site.
Three Elite Cavalry wins follow, no Great Leader.


IT - The Shimazu sink three of our Cannon Kublai, at the cost of one Ironclad

Kofu: Worker - Cannon
New Ichinomiya, Kawasaki, Fujisawa, New Handa, Mito: Worker - Cannon
Gifu: Settler - Harbour
Moriyama-ku: Musketman - Library (feel free to change this)
Ichinomiya: Musketman - Cannon
Cracker san: Cannon - Worker


Turn 10 - 1250 AD
Workers work and units move.
Switch production from Frigates to Ironclads everywhere.

Two elite wins in Shimazu land produce a Great Leader. I move our entire stack one tile south.

I would now proceed this way:
- Use the settler to found a city on Shimazu lands, to allow our injured units to heal and to use the GL to build an Army.
- Put the three Elite Samurai in the newly-formed Army, and use it with some Cavalries as a fast riding party to completely isolate the Shimazu capital. I may be overestimating the Shimazu, but cutting Kagoshima off will prevent them from using any resources. I am not sure, by the way, if it will also break their ogoing deal with the Han; that would be a very nice thing to achieve...
- The bulk of our units could move towards Obi (or Omura), raze it and build an Oda city there to establish a better foothold on their island.
- We can surely use some more workers (just change cannons somewhere).

Anyway, up to the team to decide. We still have several options open.


I am afraid the game stagnated a bit in these 10 turns -possibly as a side effect of too much eating on my part- but I didn't feel like splitting our offensive stack in Shimazu lands. Hopefully, we will take some speed from here.

We built up some Cannons of course (as a feeling, I think I'll be happy when we have >50), and a few Musketman to accompany our offensive troops.

Our tech rate is painfully slow, but I am afraid that switching to Republic is not too convenient at this point (I'd be delighted to be proved wrong here). I considered starting a few libraries in the higher-income cities, but that's open to discussion too.
Even assuming that we can extort trade, or steal a couple of techs from the AI, Tanks are still a long way to go -we will need to reassess the situation when the Shimazu are conquered.



Just in case Mad doesn't spot it...
Our score is 3613


Oh, and the save, of course...

 

[AlanH]

Thanks, Karasu. Well done. Glad to see someone's still sober after the festivities. It sounds like we are making inroads on Shimazu, it was never going to be easy.

Smackster IS the ghost of Chrstmas future ...

Roster

Karasu
Smackster UP
Sir Bugsy On deck
AlanH

 

[mad-bax]

Karasu: No need to gloat

 

[Sir Bugsy]

My eyes are a little bleary from the holidays. I didn't see our score, OH!! There it is!! We're starting to increase our lead a little. That will all evaporate if team B gets the conquest before us. With a military rail-net, we should make strides much faster now.

Good luck smackster!

 

[smackster]

I got it, will look at it tonight and do my best to finish. Can't comment until I see it but I also feel that we may need Republic to get the tech rate up, not sure if we have enough cavalry to defeat Han, certainly need Artillery to even attempt that. Now this game has been going to long for me that I don't remember if we are Religious or not.

Smackster

 

[AlanH]

We're religious, but I'm not sure a revolution would help the tech rate much. As I understand it you reduce corruption a bit by going to Republic, but you have to pay all your unit costs. Our total corruption cost is currently 586 gpt, and we would have to find an extra 220 gpt to cover current unit costs, and we are still building units. I therefore very much doubt if we would end up with any more gpt in Republic. We may even be worse off, as we would probably run a higher entertainment tax rate because of war weariness. Please correct me if I've missed something.

Our need for faster research is driven by the Han's rate of advance. We have choices: Speed up our own rate or slow down the Han's, or both.

We could slow down the Han if we could get them into Communism. It's likely that they have Communism or will research it soon - the AI seem to like it. If we can take on the Han soon enough to prevent them getting to Replaceable Parts, and force them into Communism then we could stall their research rate. I think it's a risky gambit as we could end up fighting them with Cavalry vs. Infantry and that's very ugly, but we should debate it.

We could also slow them down if we don't renew their lux deals in the next 6-8 turns. However, that cuts off over 100 gpt income, so we need to think about this option carefully.

We have 12 techs to go before we get to tanks. Here are some alternative ways to increase research:

1. We could run entertainment at 10% instead of 20% right now, and hire a couple of taxmen or MPs in marginal cities. That improves the research time for Electricity by one turn. We should have furs and ivory soon as we overrun the Shimazu lands. This should allow us to zero the entertainment tax, and can replace the incense we currently buy from Han.

2. Extort techs from the Shimazu during the upcoming unpleasantness.

3. Make sure we snag Theory of Evolution with a pre-build. That gets us two free techs and is worth more than anything else we could do. If we self-research to Scientific Method it will take about 30 turns from here, but Shimazu may be able to help . Our fastest shield producing cities are running at 16 spt currently and will take well over 30 turns to complete Theory of Evolution until we rail their tiles. I suggest we start a palace pre-build as soon as we have a library in one of these cities. Our freebies should be Atomic Theory and Electronics to maximise trade opportunities, so we need to plan for the Hoover Dam.

4. Our population is lower than it should be. There are mined plains and grass in our core areas that could be irrigated and growing our population faster, and we need aqueducts in several core cities to allow them to grow. Every core citizen will generate at least one gpt on a roaded tile. That translates to up to 2 beakers per turn with a library and a university.

5. We currently have approximately zero Libraries. We could complete libraries in all our top beaker-producing cities in 4-8 turns and that would probably increase our science output by 10-20%. Then build universities, either by hand or using leaders.

 

[AlanH]

Originally posted by mad-bax
Karasu: No need to gloat

I don't think it was a gloat, but rather a comment on the fact that you didn't spot the score he posted in his previous turn log. We're still a long way from the finishing post, and I think we'd better hold off on gloating until we get there.

 

[Karasu]

Alan is right: 'twas just to make sure you saw it (and apparently it worked... )
No gloating from me before we win... and if we do, nothing more than my typical, understated, gentleman comments

Regarding the game, I agree with Alan's comments. We will surely need to discuss battle plans and research policy as soon as we see how fast we proceed through Shimazu.

 

[mad-bax]

'Twas meant to be a joke....

 

[Karasu]

You know I knew it, mate...

 

[smackster]

I had a look last night at the position, now I'm going to play some turns. I started by sending a Cavalry onto the Shimazu mountain to have a look around, I can see Riflemen in Kaguzuma and there are probably a few of them so at size 12 next to mountain I don't want to attack that but we need some space to breath, I want to build a city and rush a barracks. I have decided to do this one square south of our landing position for protection of mountains while keeping it next to the sea. Also this is within reach of Ozi and Kaguzuma. I'll go through with the plan to pillage the capital and maybe attack Ozi.

I built another army with our leader and filled it with Cavalry. These two armies should really help to defeat the Rifles.

The army to the west I'll continue to build and try to get ships there to transport them. I note that Baekje will kindly give us a ROP (the fools) so we can start to transport troops over there.

We need a bit of cash for the barracks rush, so will think about adjusting our tech slider. Actually I'll rush it on the second turn so it will cost 80, I sell our map for some more gold.

The Shimazu frigates are hampering our efforts to reinforce but there is a one turn gauntlet that can be run, which I'll do once we have staved off their initial onslaught.

Smackster

 

[smackster]

IBT Our Cavalry scout is killed for the loss of one of theirs. I see lots of Shimazu Cavlary around their capital.

We build lots of cannon, and I switch a couple to library the rest build more cannon. Massed artillery is probably the only way to defeat Han.

T1 1255AD

Railroad building looks good and should have rail to front lines in a few turns. This turn we just move things about. Sending all to the Shimazu lines and the western ships to start moving our western stack.

IBT See more muskets move into Shimazu capital.

T2 1260AD

We build more cannon and start another library.

We build Azuchi 2 in Shimazu land, switch to barraks. This gets us culture onto one of the mountains which we will sit on and start pillaging from. We pillage a little safely, and move a small force onto the mountains, I would like to see how they attack us now before moving too many.

In naval action our Frigate destroys a Shimazu Frigate then runs for port to repair.

Resign peace deal with Han for 20 Gold.

IBT Shimazu attack our new city, even though the entire stack is there. Of course the Army defends, and that is not good, although I see two Cavalry go down it dies, defence of the city may be tough. Shimazu leave stacks of about 6 in the open. We also lose maybe one Musket and One Samurai, they did lose other Cavlary too, not sure how many.

T3 1265 AD

Our cannons weaken the Shimazu in the open and we kill about 4 Rifles, 2 Musket, 2 Cavalry, 1 FF and a FS. The don't appear to attack out defenders on moutains and I'm trusting that to get to the pillage position. I build a defensive army as the offensive army does not work at this point. Lots of elite upgrades this turn.

Railroading is looking very good right now and should have route to front soon. Actually the front right now requires a junk shuttle but it still works ok. If I see the Cavlary acitivity die down from Shimazu I'll launch the second front as I don't have defenders in that lot.

BTW we lost the chance for Ironworks as the iron went.

IBT Well they attacked our Musket on a hill, two lost Cavalry from them for no points off our Musket and a nice elite upgrade. They dump 4 muskets in the open, and fall for our worker trick to bring out a Samurai. I will start the second front now as they don't seem to have many Cavlary left.

T4 1270 AD

Cannon fire weakens the Shimazu, and Cavalry finish them with more elite upgrades, no losses. Move into position to pillage in earnest. Second front is started with 3 Cavalry on a hill.

IBT Shimazu again take our worker leaving Cavlary stranded. They then suprise us by landing 3 Cavalry from the sea on their own land next to Azuchi 2. Looks like they really have run out of Cavlary now.
Our troops on the second front are not attacked, the junk is sunk for the loss of one frigate.

T5 1275AD

As usual weaken the Cavalry with cannon and then obliterate with Cavalry. We now have 10 elite Cavlary. Next turn I will launch against Ozi and delete it from the map.

We now have 13 Cavalry and a cannon next to Omura.

We launch four ships over to Baekje, will sign ROP next turn.

I forgot to mention that the Barracks was built in Azuchi 2

IBT Shimazu drop 3 more Cavalry from the sea, next to Azuchi, and they counter attack our second front with one Cavalry which dies. They only manage to damage one of our second front ships, although we were lucky as there were another four frigates one square away.

T6 1280 AD

Now this is getting fun, will have to leave this soon and finish tonight.

Omuza is raized for the loss of three Cavalry. Need to go now, just as I was about to attack Ozi. Later.

Smackster

 

[Sir Bugsy]

Great tactics smackster!! Way to use the terrain to your advantage.

I agree with Alan's science assessment. Libraries and universities in our core cities will be very important in maintaining a tech pace.

Keeping a few taxmen in corrupt cities is also a great idea. If we were able to hire 50 taxmen, the extra money may be enough to increase the science rate by 10%.

Bugs

 

[Karasu]

Looks like great progress, well done repelling their first assault!

If you are correct in guessing they are running out of Cavs, then Shimazu is all but gone.

If we do sweep them quickly, however, we really need to start worrying about the Han and our tech pace...

 

[AlanH]

Good work Smackster. I'm surprised Baekje will give us a ROP. Can't wait for the next installment.

 

[Karasu]

Wow. Three posts in ten minutes!
Were we all here scouting the thread?

Just a note about my worries: if it takes too long to get to tanks, we may have to consider heading straight to Replaceable Parts and stop there, attacking the Han with Cavalry, hundreds of Artillery and some defending Infantries... a bit scary, but not totally out of the picture right now

 

[Sir Bugsy]

This always seems to be a good time for intercontinental discussion. Here on the West Coast of the USA, I and many others have just arrived at work (the best time for surfing CFC )

Those on the East Coast are in their lunch hour.

And those of you in Europe have started your evening.

I agree with the artillery/cav approach to the Han. We will need to raze most of their cities.