MB4 - GOTM24 Redux [civ3] Roster A

[Sir Bugsy]

Nonsense smackster. No one is perfect, and no one expects you to play perfectly. You made a decision which at the time was a good one. Who could forsee a streak like we've had of no leaders. Certainly not me. I had 2-3 elite victories per turn, using Sir Pleb's technique of using the elites on redlined or low defense opponents. Nothing. Each time I was expecting a leader.

In hindsight, I could have managed Ina better to put us a lot closer to the Han. It isn't just one person's fault we have a problem to solve.

I think the team could really use your input here to help solve this problem. If we solve it and beat the Han to ToE, we're on our way. If we don't, we'll have a huge uphill battle. Winnable, but much harder.

Bugs

 

[AlanH]

@Smackster: Hey! Take it easy on yourself. We couldn't predict the timing, we should have had multiple leaders by now, Han's tech rate is awesome, and yet we are still within a turn or two of getting it. It seems likely that we'll get a leader in the next few turns given the poor statistics so far, so my fretting may be all for nothing anyway. In which case a few muskets will have had a nice sea voyage and we'll have a few more options.

Any ideas you can come up with at this stage will help, and some thoughts on tech progression would also help. Here's my current thinking:

Shimazu will only contribute Nationalism, which does very little for us at this stage - maybe we could conscript a bit.

If - no, when - we get Theory of Evolution, we need a decision on our free techs. Standard practice would be to go for Atomic Theory and Electronics, and snag Hoover. That would normally be enough to trade for a lot of the other half of the tree. However, that would depend on being able to make peace with the Han. An alternative is to use ToE for Industrialisation and Replaceable Parts. Or some combination. With our Artillery defended by Infantry we would be in a stronger position to take down the Han. What think you?

If we sign an MA with Baekje maybe we should gift them into a position to help with research?

@Sir Bugsy: Point taken on hampering Beijing. I'm looking around for the resources we need.

- Maybe a few Exporers should be included, as I think they can pillage a two tile radius in mountains?
- I'm assuming you recommend an attack from our east coast onto Han's west coast?
Most of our eastern fleet is in the north, in the straits between the mainland and Shimazu, and I have had no experience of the ocean movement capabilities of the Cannon Kublai since we learnt Magnetism. I guess they need to head south west, pick up troops en route and then head south towards Beijing. I just noticed that there's a vast area of sea protecting Beijing's coastline to slow down an invasion fleet. We don't have many turns to do this in, so every turn of ship movement is going to count.


Another option is to invade from our west coast, south of our current line of attack. The rail network seems less well developed there. Any thoughts?

It's also just occurred to me that with luck the Han may revolt for a few turns and go to Communism. That should slow them down. On the other hand it may take a while for them to decide to revolt. Baekje are still in Democracy after 7 turns of war. Anyone know how to force the Han into an early revolt? I guess we need to kill lots of their troops and invade their territory as soon as possible, which is kind of a good idea anyway

[EDIT] I've just counted some tiles, and the ships on our east coast would take forever to get to Beijing. I think it's at least 6 turns for the one Cannon Kublai that's off Sanda with no home coast tiles to negotiate, and the others are probably four turns further away than that. So I've looked at other alternatives. Another cunning plan would be to try to escort a settler from our stack in Baekje land by sea to near Chengdu then overland towards Beijing. Build a city east of Beijing to wipe out the mountain tiles and pillage others. At the moment I can't see how to do that in less than ten turns, though . Explorers could get there faster, maybe, but their escorts wouldn't keep up.

 

[Sir Bugsy]

I was thinking that the quickest way to get some troops to Beijing would be to load in the Shimazu region and sail south. Remember we have differential sea movement. The ocean tiles count as 1/3rd of a movement point. I think you could have your fleet in China in three or four turns.

I've never conscripted, but don't we need nationalism for that.

 

[AlanH]

Originally posted by Sir Bugsy
I was thinking that the quickest way to get some troops to Beijing would be to load in the Shimazu region and sail south. Remember we have differential sea movement. The ocean tiles count as 1/3rd of a movement point. I think you could have your fleet in China in three or four turns.

Our differential movement means we have eight movement points. Each coast tile costs us 3 points, each sea tile costs 2 points and each ocean tile costs 1 point. Here's a screenshot of the voyage for the three best-placed ships. It's 9 turns.

I've never conscripted, but don't we need nationalism for that.

That's why I said it

 

[smackster]

I will have a look when I get home, I'm afraid I moved and dont have internet access from there yet. Gets installed monday. So I'll try to send an update in the morning Boston time.

Smackster

 

[AlanH]

Monday's a bit of a delay, so I'll wait a bit longer in case Karasu comes up with any flashes of inspiration, and then I'll move it along this evening.

I still can't see how to get pillagers to Beijing in time to make a difference. Kamikase explorers, landing SW of Chengdu with musket cover and then making a five-tile suicidal pillaging dash to the Beijing mountains and hills would take at least ten turns to get there by my best estimate. Assembling troops on our two nearest east coast ships and travelling from there seems to take the same time. I'm coming to the conclusion that I'd better just try to maximise Ina's production and wish very hard for a leader.

 

[Karasu]

Sorry for the delay, team. Let me blame the wine for it... ehm... or was it the Negroni...

I couldn't find the save file from Sir Bugsy's game anywhere, so it is not easy to comment on the pillaging expedition to Beijing -which I would try to implement as a high priority in any case.

Other than keeping my fingers crossed for a leader, I think we should take the MA with Baekje. This may divert some of the Han forces while we set uo for a landing near Beijing.
I think that our best option now is making sure that their capital is permanently disconnected from the rest of the empire.

 

[AlanH]

Originally posted by Karasu
Sorry for the delay, team. Let me blame the wine for it... ehm... or was it the Negroni...

I couldn't find the save file from Sir Bugsy's game anywhere, so it is not easy to comment on the pillaging expedition to Beijing -which I would try to implement as a high priority in any case.

Other than keeping my fingers crossed for a leader, I think we should take the MA with Baekje. This may divert some of the Han forces while we set uo for a landing near Beijing.
I think that our best option now is making sure that their capital is permanently disconnected from the rest of the empire.

Hi Karasu. Glad to hear you've been making good use of your time Bugsy's .sav file is HERE. The url is http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads6/MB4A-1350_AD.zip

You raise a good point. I was thinking of the Beijing pillaging expedition purely as a way to stymie the Han's Theory of Evolution effort. However, it is a good thing to do in its own right, and even more so if we miss ToE.

[edited to put the explicit .sav url text in for Karasu's brain-dead browser]

 

[Karasu]

Strange. I can't even see the link in your post -so Sir Bugsy's original file must be in his "Investigation of Beijing" post which I also see as empty.

No real problem, anyway. In case of emergency, I can always go back to work and download it from there...

 

[AlanH]

@Karasu: You don't need to go back to work . I've added in the url in clear text in my post. Copy and past it to your browser address line. Alternatively you could try hitting the upload files link at the bottom of the page, click the link to view the contents of Uploads6 and search for "MB4A-1350_AD.zip" in that window using your browser's Find .... Then click that link to download the file.

 

[Karasu]

Not that I would have done anything even remotely resembling work... But with your writing down the link it got a lot easier, thanks a lot.
I'll give it a look, even though I don't think my mind is ready for any sparks on inspiration...

 

[Sir Bugsy]

I think a lot of prayers to the RNG gods is our best best. We're certainly due for a leader.

Best of luck Alan

Bugs

 

[smackster]

I looked at the save. I'm clueless how to get TOE apart from with leaders.

Make sure you get peace with Baekje, and they will give alliance against Han. Get peace with Shimazu and then back to war. Seems like we can get lots of techs by doing this (not the one we want however).

This is going to be a good finish, how to beat a technologicaly advanced power.

 

[AlanH]

Apologies! I haven't pressed next turn yet and it's nearly 48 hours since my GOT IT. I'm going to be several hours late on my final posting.

I have spent hours staring at this thing in preflight mode. So far I have us at +81 gpt incuding the Baekje deal, with the sliders at 3.7.0 [corrected] for Scientific Method in 6 turns.

I have done the deal with Baekje in two steps. We got Democracy and all his gold and gpt for Peace and Steam in one deal, then the MA for Medicine in a separate deal. After the Peace deal I checked F4. Baekje were at peace with the Han and had a ROP with them, so they've declared war and broken that deal now.

My reasoning for the two step deal was as follows:

1. If we did the alliance in the same deal as peace then if we make peace with Han early we automatically go back to war with Baekje. That might not be what we want.

2. I decided we should sell Baekje both techs anyway, as they may then research something else of use to us.

3. We get Democracy as well. Once we have disposed of the Shimazu we might want to make profitable peace with the Han for a period while we switch to Democracy, build our forces and infrastructure, and accelerate research to Tanks.

FYI, I analysed the Baekje valuations of everything on the table, using gpt as the measurement unit:

Our stuff:
Peace - 16 gpt
Steam - 88 gpt
Medicine - 91 gpt
Total value = 194 gpt

Their stuff:
Alliance vs Han - 68 gpt
Democracy - 66 gpt
64 gold - 3 gpt
Cash flow - 25 gpt
Total value = 162 gpt

Their worthless stuff:
Economics - 27 gpt
Music Theory - 19 gpt

I'm in two minds on whether to move the four cavalry next to the Baekje city away from the 14-Infantry SOD and leave the cannon behind. The Han SOD can probably take out the Baekje city, kill our cavalry as an afterthought, and capture the cannons. Whereas retreating at least saves 10% of our cavalry force to fight another day. I hate to walk away from 10 cannon, but I think I shall have to do it.

Back to the fray ....

[edited slider value error]

 

[smackster]

You might consider disbanding the cannon, don't want to meet them later under the Han.

BTW remember this is still a game and if you mess it up we will still love you, so I think you should start digging into it.

Smackster

 

[AlanH]

Originally posted by smackster
You might consider disbanding the cannon, don't want to meet them later under the Han.

I agree, unfurtunately they've already moved ao I can't select them to disband. If they hadn't moved I could move them back and use them for counterattack next turn. There's only one fast unit in the SOD and that's injured (not sure how )

BTW remember this is still a game and if you mess it up we will still love you, so I think you should start digging into it.

I'm going to go for it now. I've concluded that it's a 50:50 call. At one extreme the Han may focus on Yosu and leave our stack alone entirely. At the other extreme they'll wipe out our stack and take the cannon anyway. I think I'll leave the cavalry in place so that even if the Han wipe us out we'll probably inflict some death and injury. If I walk away they'll take our cannon at zero cost.

Here I go, for better or for worse .... Hits next turn ....

More Han cavalry showed up, and they attacked all our defences. Bottom line is we lost the 4 cav/10 cannon stack and the Korean Beachhead city with 9 settlers . Kunsan held ... just. After IBT production we are down 8 cavalry, 9 cannon, 3 muskets and 9 settlers at start of next turn.

It's difficult to track all the battles, but I think we only killed four Han units and injured another half dozen.

Turn 1 1355 AD
Some mixed news from the next turn.

First the bad ... At Nishu-Ki (Shimazu) a 16 gun salute knocked a miserable one hit point off two rifles. As it had just received a junk, presumably with reinforcements, ant it's still at pop 7, I decided to wait for next turn to see if I get better bombard results.

Now the good ... At Kunsan we killed off 7 of the Han cavalry and a rider from the troops that did so much damage IBT. No losses on our side, and we got 3 new elites.

And the VERY GOOD ... We got a LEADER [dance]
Nobunga is heading for home to wait for Scientific Method.

I've just realised that our sole remaining city is right next to the Baekje capital. Great position for our original plan, but we are in very grave danger of losing it to a flip. And it's FULL of our troops . We urgently need to build a new beachhead in Han-land, so I'll get a settler organised pdq.

(BTW, our Korean Beachhead city was razed by the Han)

As you my realise, I am updating this more or less in real time, rather than transcribe it later.

A Han frigate escorting a Cannon Kublai has currently arrived off our west coast island, and it can drop troops on our shores next turn. I've done a quick scan and I can only see a three or four cavalry and cannon available for homeland security, including two built this time around. We have several Kensai Oda, but at attack 4 they won't do much for us if the Han drop Infantry. I'll try to rush some extra counter attack units and I'll upgrade some footmen to muskets to provide city defences. This is getting a bit hairy.

More later ...

 

[Karasu]

Hard times, tough choiches... Good luck, Alan!

EDIT: and good it was -a leader! [dance]

And well done trading with Baekje, and, by the way, yes, we still love you...

 

[smackster]

Great going on the leader, that is the bit of luck we needed. I don't think it matters so much what goes on in the Han area yet, getting ourselves to Tanks quickly is key in my opinion.

Smackster

 

[AlanH]

Sorry, guys, I'm going to call it a night. This turn has taken it out of me. Thanks for all your supportive comments, they are much appreciated I hope to complete tomorrow morning UK time. I'm not sure which hemisphere, or even quadrisphere (?), Karasu is in, but I hope I can hand over to him by mid-day GMT.

Meanwhile it looks like ToE is going to be ours, assuming Han hasn't found a magic elixir to make his ToE arrive faster and our Leader's boat doesn't sink. We've all been preoccupied with the ToE issue, but now we need to look ahead again. While I sleep, please think about strategies, and which two techs we should take in five turns time:

a) The two expensive ones - Atomic Theory and Electronics? That gets us Hoover in 17 turns with our current prebuild - yes, Ina *is* on running water. In 17 turns we can research Industrialisation so that we'll have factories to use the power. These techs don't give us any new capabilities immediately, but move us towards tanks in a big way.

b) Replaceable Parts and Industrialisation, allowing us to build factories and artillery and infantry immediately?

c) Any alternative combination of the above?

I think I favour option a), mainly because at this state of fatigue I'm not sure how to proceed against the Han now until we have tanks. 31 Cavalry and 60+ cannon, many of which are still needed in Shimazu-land, are not going to make much of a dent in them.

I'm certain the Colossus city will flip back to Baekje before long, and it's not particularly well placed to assist with an attack on the Han anyway. I'm considering gifting it back to Baekje now and having our troops transported straight back to our capital (where do ships in harbor go when that happens?). Then we can focus on countering the Han on our own turf, regroup for some sort of response such as a pillaging run, and sue for peace as soon as the Han'll talk to us? I'll sleep on this thought, but please give me your comments.

Plan B, or is it C or D, would be to reopen hostilities with the Baekje to exploit and expand our position on the other continent. But I think that's a recipe for disaster.

[Edit] Here's a screenshot of Kunsan showing its distance from Han and its vulnerability to a culture flip. Perhaps I should abandon the city rather than gift it? That way no one gets to use the Colossus.

 

[mad-bax]

[Copied from the PTW thread]

I have had a couple of RL issues to resolve over the new year period, namely I have no hot water or heating and twin 3 year old children. Consequently I have not been on the boards much recently.

Cracker contacted me recently and explained the late game easter eggs. I have not decided yet whether I should divulge this information verbatim, but I assume that this is what he was referring to. I have just been tardy, for which I apologise.

I have not played the game to the point of making use of this information, but for now I have decided to release the following information which is a compromise.

One of the late Industrial age techs will allow the building of a unit that you will not have encountered before, but that you will almost certainly be aware of in the historical context of Japanese history of this period. This unit may well be beneficial in acheiving a conquest victory.

The revised 'pedia will tell you what the unit does and what it costs to build etc.

I agree with cracker that the team would benefit from discussing how to use this unit once it has been discovered.