MB4 - GOTM24 Redux [civ3] Roster B

got it

Everything looks ok. Interesting to note that Mori has 8 cities, Kuroda 5, Takeda 9 and Tokugawa 8

Turning the explorers back was a major error IMO. Any contacts they make are more valuable than their lives. Also why were workers irrigating the plains near ISE?

1250BC IBT - Tokugawa establishes an embassy with us.

1225BC nothing interesting

1200BC Azuchi flagged foot -> settler
spot a purple horseman

1175BC Nagoya settler-> settler
Baejke build Oracle

1150BC nothing

1125BC nothing

1100BC ISE worker - barracks

1075BC Azuchi settler -> Flagged Footman
Tokugawa declare war on the Mori

1050BC Nagoya - settler-> settler
Takeda demand 28G - we pay

1025BC - Hammatsu builds Pyramids (its close and has a big target on it)
Bejing (Han) builds great wall

1000BC Kurono warrior -> warrior

Score is 228 and dead last of the known civs. We have 5 towns but 3 settlers are out. The one near the wool is ready to found a town. The fish and wool will make a productive town. One is on the north west cows and should move onto the coast hills. The third is south of the north western olives. He can either settle near the lake (get the cow via expansion) or on the hills near the rocks.

I declined to buy Calligraphy. There were no workers or any other techs available so I did no trading.


>SAVE<

MB4B-1000BC.jpg
 
Madbax -

Sorry about the goto on the settler/warrior. This is the first SG I have played, next time I will leave them waiting for orders from the next player. My write-up said that they were heading for the hill beside Koromo. My thinking was that way they it could reach the cows and 4BG immediately, the iron later at the cost of needing an aquaduct eventually.

The tech choice (Shamanism) was based on the AI's preference for the Alphabet/ Calligraphy/ Map Making/ Mathematics/ Construction paths, and hopefully we could finish Shamanism first and get a three or four techs for one trade advantage (as the AIs swap techs for little more than a nudge & a wink). It might just work as the AIs did research Alpha & Callig first.
 
Peanut: My bad! I obviously didn't read you turnlog carefully enough. My apologies. The research selection is fine, and you are right in saying that the AI don't "do" polytheism. I was just remarking that it isn't the way I tend to play, and it makes it interesting.

Adrian, I sent 3 warriors out of the 5 back. My thinking was that with the raging barb setting, sending unescorted settlers would be bad, and I didn't want to delay getting settlers out. But yes, I agree, further contacts are much more valuable than the lives of the units and on balance it was a bad move.

Irrigating the plains tiles is a good move IMO. Originally Ise was working the irrigated wheat and an uniproved hill and was therefore at +3 food. Irrigating a plains is quicker than mining a grass to get to +4 food, so that is why the first one was irrigated, and the second was just to provide another 2 food tile to allow Ise to Size 3 so we could pop rush a temple a bit later. Later, most or all of the plains tiles that lie between our capital and Ise will be irrigated, and the irrigation needs to come from somewhere. On top of that I envisaged Ise as a worker pump for practically the whole game so shields were not a priority.

What tiles around Ise would you have improved?
 
Rather than to build a whole lot of workers, I would rather start a ancient age-middle age war with sufficient warrior-upgraded swords and go for slaves. This is considering a conquest victory condition. I would not make Ise into a worker factory. We should leave worker production to outlaying corrupt cities that can build nothing else. Ise is a first ring highly productive city, definitely not worker production material.

My 2 cents.
 
Well, if it's a war you want, then maybe we should buy Calligraphy and establish an embassy with the Takeda and see if they are at war with Tokugawa. The Takeda look the weakest ATM.

We may have to agree to disagree about workers. With our terrain type and a non-industrious civ I would look at 2 workers per city. If Adrian irrigated the wine then we can have a four turn settler factory and therefore I would want to build 1 worker every other turn. So, again IMHO the rax going into Ise could be changed to granary. We have a fairly shield rich ring of cities that should be able to knock out a couple of warriors and the odd horse every turn soon, so we could get maybe a dozen warriors and say four horses by 500BC. Can we make enough money to upgrade a dozen warriors?
 
I would war for calligraphy instead. :D

Rather than to build a fixed worker production, I would use worker production on all our cities as contraciption, i.e., to maintain a managable population size. Pinning a first ring city for settler is justifiable, but for workers, that is more touchy. We could swap Nagoya to worker production once we run out of space.

Incidentally, I am perfectly comfortable with populations using unworked tiles, and this may be the big difference in playing style. It's a matter of comfort level. I use war to pull ahead rather than production or research.

I am just throwing out my opinions, alternatives to consider. :D

BTW, are we doing 40turn research gambits?

Since it's my turn, I would like the take on everyone b4 I play my turns.
 
If we agreed on everything SG's would be pointless. :)

ISE cannot grow every two turns anyway and without a granary can only grow every 6, so it looks to be on a worker/warrior rotation anyway as things stand. Peeling workers off other cities to prevent the lux slider moving will be necessary for us to make enough money for the upgrades.
 
In my turns purple (Tokugawa) declared war on the Mori. There has been a constant stream of purple units heading west. The bulk of their army will be in the Green (Kuroda) soon. Purple is a nice target as they have the Pyramids in Hammatsu.

If we buy caligraphy from Mori, then get them to pay us for an alliance against Tokugawa we might get most of our $ back. Then we sign up Kuroda against Tokugawa. Kuroda then fights the bulk of the Tokugawa army and we get the spoils! We'll need about 10 swordsman and 5 horsemen before we start the war though. That means we'll need 400G for the upgrades and $ to bribe the Kuroda. We'll also need 200G for embassies. I estimate that 800G is needed.

We need to crank out veteran warriors to upgrade to swords and get the horses hooked up. I have 4 workers building the road to Oqaki. We need Caligraphy first to sign alliances and buy contacts. The AI's were asking 182G +1GPT. The AI's usually ask for 20% more than they'll accept, so we could get it for 160 or so.

We should send our new settlers out south and west. We need to grab that territory ASAP. Then settle old yellow dot. I think we should expand first, build up warriors and then swordsman rush the Tokugawa while their army is half a continent away.

Mad-bax I'd have mined the grasslands on the river near ISE to get extra cash flow. I've got a worker doing that now.

I did finish the irrigation of the wines. One worker team is mining the last BG required for the settler factory in Nagoya.
I think the Fish/Wool settler will be able to get a worker pump going. We don't need a core city producing workers. I agree with the others on this. I think we need some workers up by Kuromo. We will need a road pointed at the heart of Togukawa.
 
Personally, I don't like to form alliances for war. It severely restricts the freedom to sue for peace for profits when appropriate. If I go to war, I usually do it alone.

I only get an alliance when I am in a war I am not interested in fighting. An example, would be a distant AI declares on me and I can't be bothered. I wiil find another AI nearby to my enemy and make alliance to fight the war for me and not bother me.

I would have bought calligraphy(or will buy) immediately. The lack of calligraphy spells the lack of ability to trade contacts.

The short of it, if I declare war in my turns (not in these 10 of course) I will not bring in an alliance, sorry not my style.
 
Originally posted by gormdragan

BTW, are we doing 40turn research gambits?

It'd be 50 turn gambits in this game :)

Less attractive? I dunno.
 
Most early wars last a long time so alliances aren't so bad. It will take 10 to 12 turns to march our swordsman SOD to Hammatsu from our borders anyway. We want the Pyramids before any peace talks. So we'd just have to wait a few turns. The advantage of bringing the Kuroda in via an alliance is that they will engage the Tokugawan army and protect our eastern border. Otherwise the returning Toks will hammer our lightly defended eastern cities. Signing Kuroda up with us means that the Toks can't get them. We only want to fight 1 civ at a time if we can help it.

Alliances have their uses. I wouldn't categorically discard them.

I'd also like to suggest that we always fight 'honorably' and declare war from outside the territory of the enemy. It is bad form to take the rep hit and saddle the other players with a poor reputation.
 
Originally posted by AdrianE

Alliances have their uses. I wouldn't categorically discard them.

I'd also like to suggest that we always fight 'honorably' and declare war from outside the territory of the enemy. It is bad form to take the rep hit and saddle the other players with a poor reputation.

I definitely agree with this.
 
Workers vs. War -

I believe that we will need to go onto a war footing in the near future, but before that we should have our core (ring 1) cities running productively. That means more workers.

We also need to have roads built to the edge of our empire (& even into unclaimed territory) in order to get troops to our target faster, and to move them back if we are attacked from another direction or have a barb uprising. That means more workers.

We also need to get our luxuries and towns connected up to keep populations happier and corruption down. That means more workers.

My approach, for what it is worth, is to time the production of settlers and workers to coincide approximately with pop growth. The remaining production goes into military (or city improvements). That way we build just the right level of improvements (mines & irrigation) to match our town populations as they fluctuate as we produce settlers and workers.

So, we need to produce our own workers first to get our core tuned for a military campaign. Any slaves we gain in war will be working hard firstly to connect up our new conquests.
 
Preturn:
No trades done, using Peanut's advice on Shamanship trade.

975:
Azuchi makes Flagged, starts war
Handa founded starts war.

IBT:
Tokugawa threatens war, I fold. Just you wait for our swordsman. Gave away our territory map+27gp.

950:
Yokkachi founded, starts war.
Suzuka founded, starts war.

925:
Nagoya makes settler, starts rax. Please let Nagoya grow to at least 5 b4 starting settler production. That would give us a 4 turn settler. Don't build settler prematurely, not efficent.

900:

IBT:
Takeda and Tokugawa MA against Mori.

875:
Tokugawa got 100+ more gp this turn, Tokugawa and Takeda has MM. Still no one has Shamanship, this gambit is looking good. I noticed that no one has additional contacts, so on hindside, pulling the warriors back to protect the settlers is not a bad idea. :goodjob:

850:
Azuchi makes temple, starts war.

825:
Nagoya makes rax, starts settler this is the start of a 4 turn settler cycle. :jump:

May need to MM, please check every turn.

At pop 5, work 3 mined BGs, irrigated cattle and irrigated wine. 7 shields per turn, 5 food per turn.

At pop 6, work 3 mined BGs, irrigated cattle, irrigated wine and unworked BGs. 8 shields per turn, 5 food per turn. No waste at all.


Nagoya does not need any more tile working, any addition work is wasted.

Kuroda has MM too. Still no one has Shamanship.

800:
Azuchi makes war, starts Flagged footman. I think we have a good cycle here. Nagoya makes settler, Azuchi makes flagged footman escorts and workers to trim the population.


Summary and Thoughts

(1) Tokugawa gets Mathematics. We can do a 3-fer if we trade 266+7gpt+WM for Maths with Tokugawa. Then Trade Maths with Kuroda for Calligraphy.
Then Trade Maths with Mori for Contact with Chosogabe.
Then Trade Maths with Takeda for Mapmaking.
Then Trade Contact with Chosogabe with Tokugawa for $$$ (Try to get back some of our dough).

This empties our coffer and I am not sure if we can get all. It might be worthwhile though. We can get $$$ back with Shamanship. We can get additional trade possibilities with Chosogabe.

266+7gpt+WM+(more) for Maths+Calligraphy+Mapmaking+Contact with Chosogabe. :goodjob:


Personally, I would go for it. If this occurred during the middle of my turns, I would have jump on it. :D

(2) Nagoya needs to be MM to maintain 4 turn settler cycle. Azuchi provides settler escort.Do not move garrison in Nagoya, it will screw up the cycle.

(3) Let the first ring core city populations grow to 5 or 6 b4 slashing them down, that is more efficient in production.

(4) Rely on Outer cities (Yokkachi, Suzuka and Handa) to make workers.

(5) Escorted settler NE of Suzuka heading one more tile E to settle between the cattle and game.

Next better player.

The save
 
Wow Gormdragan :goodjob:
Can you post the Firaxis score pls?

Alweth you are UP :)
 
Err...I haven't make the trade yet. I tot it is customary that the last turn trading is done by the next player.

I am in the office now, wouldn't be able to post you the score anytime soon.
 
Originally posted by gormdragan

Tokugawa gets Mathematics. We can do a 3-fer if we trade 266+7gpt+WM for Maths with Tokugawa. Then Trade Maths with Kuroda for Calligraphy.
Then Trade Maths with Mori for Contact with Chosogabe.
Then Trade Maths with Takeda for Mapmaking.
Then Trade Contact with Chosogabe with Tokugawa for $$$ (Try to get back some of our dough).

This empties our coffer and I am not sure if we can get all. It might be worthwhile though. We can get $$$ back with Shamanship. We can get additional trade possibilities with Chosogabe.

266+7gpt+WM+(more) for Maths+Calligraphy+Mapmaking+Contact with Chosogabe. :goodjob:

We should be able to get and trade everybody's world map too. That will put even more cash in our pockets. The Chogosabe may know someone else also.

I suggest that we do the Math for mapmaking trade before trading it away for contacts. We'll get higher value in the trading. Techs are usually more costly than contacts.

Is the 266G +7GPT +WM the lowest they'll take for math? Or is that what they say they'll take? If so, they'll probably accept 225G + 7GPT +WM. Always offer them less than they say'll they'll take. The AIs usually ask for 10 to 20% more than they will accept. Also see if you can get everybody's WM or TM during the trades. Then sell it back to everyone else.

I say we should do the trades ASAP.
 
That is the lowest I could get. Hehe, I always bargain. :D

The greedy Tokugawa wanted 273 + 9gpt+WM

I would do maths for contact first b4 mapmaking because I suspect MM is worth more than just Maths. I suspect we need Maths+Contact with Chosogabe.
 
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