Memo from US Ambassador in Iraq to Condi

[carlosMM]

The soldiers who commit such atrocities are in the minority, a very few bad apples in an ocean of good.

then why are there so many?????????

The very fact that we find this apalling and surpising shows how rare these things are.

oh, so more cases would make murder harmles?

When a US soldier deliberately kills a civilian, it's a serious crime for which he will be punished.

I hope so, at least in those cases where the crime becomes public. How many were treated hush-hush? Think Abu Graib........



I wish I could have your trust in US soldiers and especially their chain of command. Experience tells me, though, that things are by far not so rosy.

 

[Elrohir]

then why are there so many?????????

Considering that there are roughly 130,000 US troops in Iraq, I don't think there are. How many do you think are there that have deliberately killed a civilian, who was of no threat to them oranother coalition or Iraqi police/security forces? Even if there were 1,000 of them (Far above the actual number, I'm sure) that would still be less than 1% of the troops in Iraq.

I hope so, at least in those cases where the crime becomes public. How many were treated hush-hush? Think Abu Graib........

Abu Ghraib is a good example, just not in the way you meant. That shows that even when abuse does happen, the truth eventually comes out. I don't think there are very many more cases of abuse than we've found out; there are too many willing to report it for it to be kept secret for long.

I wish I could have your trust in US soldiers and especially their chain of command. Experience tells me, though, that things are by far not so rosy.

I grew up in a military family. A good percentage of the people I grew up with my entire life were military families. I've never met anyone who I thought would kill an innocent civilian, or order it done, and I've met everyone from Master Sergeants up to Colonel's and above. That doesn't mean they don't exist, but I would say that they are very, very rare.

 

[carlosMM]

would say that they are very, very rare.

They were. And I hope still are.

But remember Vietnam: the worse a situation in a warzone gets (especially when officially things are 'getting better' and it is officially NOT a warzone - 'Mission Accomplished'), and the more people deployed cannot understand why their leaders have them fight a war they can only lose (yes, Iraq cannot be won, at best is can become another military dictatorship, at worst another Palestine - a place of constant civil unrest), the more people deployed die uselessy, the bigger the frustration gets. And frustration makes good soldiers killers. Not many, not most, not even 5%

but what percentage os US soldiers was involved in My Lai? How many 'bad apples' were needed to give the US and its military the worst possible PR?????????????? Iraq, in this respect, has gone that way long ago, and an end is not in view.



Perhaps you believe I'm a US-hater. Not so. Perhaps you think I' am commie. Not so.
I just see that most powerful and most influential nation in the world stumbling from one screwup to the next, and the memo quoted in the OP is another indication that Iraq was a massive one on the screwup scale. To the chargin of many civilians and soldiers, both Iraqi and American.

 

[Bronx Warlord]

But remember Vietnam: the worse a situation in a warzone gets (especially when officially things are 'getting better' and it is officially NOT a warzone - 'Mission Accomplished'), and the more people deployed cannot understand why their leaders have them fight a war they can only lose (yes, Iraq cannot be won, at best is can become another military dictatorship, at worst another Palestine - a place of constant civil unrest

Words of wisdom froma civilian. Yes we should leave Iraq right now so millions more can die as that place turns into islamobrawl. Really Carlos. What unit are you in? Were have you trained and or saw combat? Cause with the above statement your speaking as if your opinion is fact, wich it is not. You also lack any sort of professional experance in the field or in the region to make me even consider your opinion having any basis in reality. Class Dismissed.

but what percentage os US soldiers was involved in My Lai? How many 'bad apples' were needed to give the US and its military the worst possible PR?????????????? Iraq, in this respect, has gone that way long ago, and an end is not in view

Less than 1% of the Americal Division, less than one precent of the Brigade that Battallion was in. Why Carlos... could these be the actions of a few people that were :: GASP :: Turned in by there own comrades? Nah, let's not let that get in the way of a good, devoid of logic but filled with emotional splat of firebombing right?

I just see that most powerful and most influential nation in the world stumbling from one screwup to the next

According to you, some guy. One out of billions.

 

[Elrohir]

They were. And I hope still are.

But remember Vietnam: the worse a situation in a warzone gets (especially when officially things are 'getting better' and it is officially NOT a warzone - 'Mission Accomplished'), and the more people deployed cannot understand why their leaders have them fight a war they can only lose (yes, Iraq cannot be won, at best is can become another military dictatorship, at worst another Palestine - a place of constant civil unrest), the more people deployed die uselessy, the bigger the frustration gets. And frustration makes good soldiers killers. Not many, not most, not even 5%

I would disagree with your assessment that Iraq cannot become a successful democracy. I'm quite willing to bet that it will - it will take a long time, and a continued sacrifice of blood and treasure, but I am thoroughly convinced that in the end it will all work out. Time will tell, and history will judge.

I would say the number is something more like 0.001%.

Perhaps you believe I'm a US-hater. Not so. Perhaps you think I' am commie. Not so.
I just see that most powerful and most influential nation in the world stumbling from one screwup to the next, and the memo quoted in the OP is another indication that Iraq was a massive one on the screwup scale. To the chargin of many civilians and soldiers, both Iraqi and American.

As I said, I would disagree with your assessment of the nature of the War in Iraq, and how it will end. Again, time will tell, and history will judge how we have acted, and what it has accomplished.

 

[carlosMM]

Words of wisdom froma civilian.

given the rest of your post, this is nothing but a moronic flame. Reported as such.

Also, I follow the lines of Schwarzhpof, Powell et al., ignorant fool.

Yes we should leave Iraq right now so millions more can die as that place turns into islamobrawl.

Ifn you would read, you'd see I never ever suggested that. Let me now suggest you buy a brain.......

Really Carlos. What unit are you in? Were have you trained and or saw combat? Cause with the above statement your speaking as if your opinion is fact, wich it is not. You also lack any sort of professional experance in the field or in the region to make me even consider your opinion having any basis in reality. Class Dismissed.

it is people like you who get the mentally sane to think about abolishing the military, mr. arrogant soldier. Your training seems to be of the 'I am always right, **** all others' type only. Any idito can pull a trigger, must i remind you of that? Looking BEYOND the pure joy of killing fellow humans, that's what a military man should be trained in. Seems that failed with you.

Less than 1% of the Americal Division, less than one precent of the Brigade that Battallion was in. Why Carlos... could these be the actions of a few people that were :: GASP :: Turned in by there own comrades? Nah, let's not let that get in the way of a good, devoid of logic but filled with emotional splat of firebombing right?

You know, lemme ask you straight: how many crimes of war have YOU commited?
How many times have YOU not been caught?
How many times have YOU hushed over the crimes of others?


Only if you can answer 'never ever' to all three questions, and all others you know can do so, too, only then you are free to voice the above words.



The constnt 'a few bad apples' rethoric mimics EXACTLY the Vietnam war - will you tell me that Vietnam was how a civilized nation should act?????

 

[carlosMM]

Elrohir, 0.001%

that depends on the number of hushed-up cases........ But, let's take those I can recall: easily, we have 30 US soldiers involved dircetly, plus another 15 higherups to hush things up or simply disregard them. Makes the total 45.

For your statement to be true, the US would have to have
a) no hushed up cases
b) almost four and a half a million troops in Iraq.
Oh, and do discount all the NAVY and AIRFORCE personell who have no contact with iraqis, btw.....

Nah, the true figure will be around 1 to 1.5%, I guess. Sadly. After all, there's a war on.

 

[Mr. Do]

Remember this is a comparison, carlosMM. Do you think the number of killing by American troops and in American-run jails is anywhere near as high as those killed by Saddam's regime?

 

[FriendlyFire]

Less than 1% of the Americal Division, less than one precent of the Brigade that Battallion was in. Why Carlos... could these be the actions of a few people that were :: GASP :: Turned in by there own comrades? Nah, let's not let that get in the way of a good, devoid of logic but filled with emotional splat of firebombing right?.

Bronx VA released figures that say 35% of all returned vets suffer PTSD there primary cause: accidential civiian deaths.

 

[CurtSibling]

Better than it was under Saddam. And it is improving, if at a slow rate.

So women being victimised is a good goal for the democracization of Iraq...?

This 'better now that it was under Saddam' mantra is wearing thin...

Virtual-civil war was not a feature of Iraq under Baath rule...

.

 

[carlosMM]

Remember this is a comparison, carlosMM. Do you think the number of killing by American troops and in American-run jails is anywhere near as high as those killed by Saddam's regime?

certainly not. But that's not the point here - replacing a terror regime with a less-bad terror regime (and that's in store for Iraq, a Shia-based regime a la Taliban) by means of a war, plus significant misbehaviour by the supposed morally correct 'rescuers' (just think of the media impact of Abu Graib) is certainly bad enough.

Going out and claiming it gets better when inf act the PEOPLE AT THE SCENE report it gets worse - that's worse. Much worse. And that's what I took offence with in this thread: certain posters pretending that Iraq is improving when in fact it is getting worse again. I'd say there's a downward trend right now, and IT DOES NOT MATTER JACK **** WHERE it started! It only matters what Iraq was like after the US invasion and where it is going from there. THAT'S the US' responsibility, and the US sucks at making things betters.

So cut the crap, leave me alone with attempts to sidetrack this into a 'Saddam was worse than Bush' debate. That's not what it ever was about.

 

[eyrei]

Moderator Action: carlosmm warned for flaming. If you can't handle people disagreeing with you, I suggest you take a step back for awhile. Eyrei.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889