Merge Sorcery and Summoning?

[MaxAstro]

Oh, one other thing I have to say: OO priests losing Water Walking is a HUGE downside to them, and another example of the new priests being too specialized; previously OO gave you a chance to get a water walking unit without needing sorcery That and floating eye made OO priests excellent scouting units with a mobility promotion. Just like Ashen Veil let you get some decent summons without needing magic techs, Runes gave you priests that were decent in combat thanks to Spiritual Hammer, etc. Now it seems that priests are just kind of a minor perk or religion, just units that are there to give you access to a specific spell or two, as opposed to the limited but useful mages they were before. They way it is now, the only reason to get a High Priest instead of an Archmage is their healing abilities. And I don't think AV civs should be rushing high priests in order to get a powerful healer... >.<

 

[Kael]

OO priests cant cast the Water Walking spell. Instead they start with the Water Walking promotion. Its a better way to do it (and they dont have to waste a promotion to gain the ability.

 

[MaxAstro]

Okay, that seems fair. I'll still miss Floating Eye... And I'll definately miss Spiritual Hammer and low level summons on Runes and AV priests...

 

[Monkeyfinger]

This "evil priests shouldn't heal" line of logic is stupid.

They're EVIL. Not ********.

Keeping your troops alive so they can continue to kill and serve as fodder does not run contrary to the idea of being evil.

 

[Fenboy]

Remember kids: a healthy Meat Shield is an effective Meat Shield

 

[Monkeyfinger]

Fenboy speaks like a smart evil man.

"DUR IM ALL DARK AND EVIL AND STUFF AND IM ABOVE HEALING PEOPLE OH NO MY GARD IS DEAD AND THEYR WAVING POINTY THIGNS AT ME PLZ DONT HRT ME" is the kind of scrubby evil man that people are trying to argue that AV high priests should be for who knows what reason.

 

[Kael]

There is more than just the practical to consider. You are right in saying that bad guys would find healing to be as useful as good guys. But we also consider the thematic, game balance and fun aspects of the decision.

Those that had recommended it might not fit were talking about the fact that it may not be the most thematic choice for the crazed or demon worshippers. And its hard to argue against that logic. It will probably stay for now like it is (everyone gets heal) but I wouldn't be surprised if it changes down the road.

Lastly, Monkeyfinger, please give me good logical reasons for your opinions. I really do want your feedback, but you have a tendancy of calling other peoples ideas stupid that is discouraging to other people (which I dont want since I want to hear their thoughts too) and isnt very helpful for me when considering your point.

 

[Monkeyfinger]

Though there is some thematic sense to not giving them heal the arguments in the other direction are just too strong, IMO.

Thematic counter-argument: Evil people would want living troops just as much as good ones, I've been over this.
Balance: Heal is godly, there's not much you could give to high priests that would be better. With the drawbacks AV has, and with the nerf Hemah's going to get (he'll be passing the mantle of "arcane smackdown layer" to Chalid), I don't think nerfing evil's high priests is such a great idea.
Fun: Ties in with the above. What's fun about going the evil route to get inferior "ultimate" units to play with?

I give plenty of logical arguments to back up my opinions, I just have a tendency to mix flames in with them, and get carried away with that sometimes.

 

[phoulishwan]

Transmutation
Spiritual Hammer
Restore City
Summon Guardian Vines

I'll definately miss these, trasmutation can make or break a game if you find yourself without copper or are in need of extra happiness. I find I use this spell quite often also to tweak a cities abilities, perhaps it's the micro manager in me, but I love the trasnmuting spell and find I get a lot of use out of it. Spiritual hammer doesn't need much explanation, +1 str on all disciple units rocks.

Restore City I think needs to stay in some form, I play quite often with the no settler feature because it's makes for some very interesting decisions and restore city is a critical spell for these game types, AI's tend to raze barb cities and every barb city counts in a no settler game.

I suppose it's an exploit really that you can plant these in opponents tiles to deny them access to working that tile even when you have open borders so I suppose removign them isn't a bad thing, but I did enjoy it while it lasted ;p

 

[WhitewolfIV]

I think that instead of heal you could give OO and AV a leaser healing spells that have side effects.

OO - Patch: Less heal, and 1% chance of mutation or 1% chance of insainty.
AV - Lifeforce Draw: Heal, 10% chance unit weaken with 75% chance to wear off per turn.

 

[Keilden]

So no one liked my ide?

 

[bc1]

You are right in saying that bad guys would find healing to be as useful as good guys.

Sorry to run against the crowd once more, but healing should not be an option for evil guys. Caring, healing, building, preservation & restoration is good guy theme. That of bad guys is to subvert, harm, defile, destroy or steal stuff.
Evil guys should have loads of strong, cheap but expendable offensive troops, and some "elite" units with vampirism or variants thereof for non-calabim players.

 

[Psychic_Llamas]

i think all preists should have some 'healing spell', but that AV and OO should have flavourful versions. ie Siphon Life or Life tap for AV should harm an enemy stack while healing the stack the caster is with a little. OO chould have something like Pain Block, which should reduce the ammount of damage the units in the casters stack recieve (think of it as placing a net around the units mind that catches any sensation of pain, meaning they last longer in combat)

 

[thewyrm]

Well, the graft flesh spell could make a comeback for the OO's heal ability. Instead of healing a unit the priest takes several hurt units and combines them into one healthy unit. I don't agree that the "evil" clerics shouldn't heal, but if the overwhelming consensus is that they shouldn't this would be a good thematic way for them to do so.

 

[TheJopa]

To add two things to the discussion:
1) Noob trap factor. Consider the decision from the standpoint of a new player who took AV, fields diseased troops, only to find out that he can't heal his own troops from disease.
2) Who channels healing spells, in the RP backstory? Is it from one god (Sucellus?) or other gods, such as Agares, can channel healing spells as well? (I'm really interested in this one)

Two compromise solutions:
Add flavor spells - it can be just a rename (although I think it isn't a good idea) or, for example, hurt a caster, city population, research or money pool...
Move healing to Life arcane sphere, and allow it for good priests as well. That way anyone can use healing, regardless of religion, if they choose to tap life mana. And RP-wise, it is not counter intuitive to tap life mana to your bidding even if you are evil.

 

[Keilden]

Give the evil races Mad Dokz type units

 

[thewyrm]

Also, just a personal plea. It seems almost criminal to have to upgrade my cool, unique Pupetteers to Arch-Mages (or Summoners for that matter) can't they be called like Grand-Pupetteers or something to that effect?

 

[cephalo]

Though there is some thematic sense to not giving them heal the arguments in the other direction are just too strong, IMO.

Thematic counter-argument: Evil people would want living troops just as much as good ones, I've been over this.
Balance: Heal is godly, there's not much you could give to high priests that would be better. With the drawbacks AV has, and with the nerf Hemah's going to get (he'll be passing the mantle of "arcane smackdown layer" to Chalid), I don't think nerfing evil's high priests is such a great idea.
Fun: Ties in with the above. What's fun about going the evil route to get inferior "ultimate" units to play with?

I give plenty of logical arguments to back up my opinions, I just have a tendency to mix flames in with them, and get carried away with that sometimes.

Well, there could be two kinds of 'healing'. There's the good kind, that hopes that the healed can retire in comfort after the war, then theres the bad kind, that turns the target into a mindless, regenerative abomination of whatever kind.

Personally, I think that the power of healing could be balanced by some other powerful abilities. Mirroring spells and abilities makes for easy balancing, but it's always more fun when the opposing sides are very different from one another while still being balanced. Like in Starcraft.

 

[Silmeran]

I think it's just too much types of mana. Make 4-6 types to be "main" and usable by casters, and leave other types to be just resources for wonders, specific events, or some general use and improvements (like mind mana improves GP born rate or something like that).

 

[Yaotzin]

Having 8-12 spells usable for most of the game, and 12-16 when the game is probably pretty much decided, would be pretty lame

Lots of spells is good, the problem was the summoning tree wasn't diverse, they were almost all single purpose (combat). So long as there isn't lots of redundancy in the spells this should be a good change.

Anyway, agreed with AV/OO getting more flavorful types of healing, or even not getting it and getting something to compensate. Not like they can't do the old fashioned healing of sitting around with a medic