Merge Sorcery and Summoning?

[eerr]

allow certain pomotions to be taken based on the magic known
death 3, ......lich
water 2, ......waterwalking
earth 2, .......stoneskin (perma!)
life 1,2,3-.....medic 1,2,3
shadow2, .....mistform(ability, gives unit hidden)
metamagic 3-.bequeath, unit sacrifices its lowest channeling promotion to give magic to another unit(channeling 1)
nature3-.......hidden tiger, crouching druid(can summon a tiger)
body2-.........natural male enhancement, 10% regeneration,+1 str

 

[R0GERSHRUBBER]

This gets said too much.

People need to take a good hard look at FfH's conventional siege units before they make this comment.

They're stuck at 1 move; there's no way to improve that. Can't be hasted, can't get mobility, can't get commando. FfH war would get so, so much worse if they became the only way to bombard. Seriously, that would suck so hard. Meanwhile, they're amazing for doing collateral. Why? 80% withdrawal rate. They'll do their collateral and be pretty much guaranteed to survive.

Fireballs should serve a DIFFERENT role. We need something in the game that's bearable to use for bombardment. We don't need yet another way to do collateral damage when we have a perfectly good one already. If fireball is to lose an ability, it should be the collateral, NOT the bombardment.

The idea is not that players without fireball would be forced to use siege equipment rather than having a magic-bombardment spell: there need to be Mage (and possibly Priest) level spells that provide bombardment that aren't fireball. Fireball is simply too versatile to pass up.

Collateral damage is more appropriate to Fireball, which is traditionally an Area-of-effect spell, not a spell that brings down walls. Earth would be far more appropriate for this effect.

Incidentally, I wouldn't be opposed to giving some civs (e.g. Luchuirp) or religions (RoK) the ability to get more mobile siege equipment (or Siege Golems).

 

[Keilden]

I don't know if someone already said this but here is what I think:
Rank 1 of mana would be some kind of buffing spell or debuffins spell.
Rank 2 of mana would be a damage spell.
Rank 3 of mana would be the summoning spell.

Low level mages can't use their mana to harm or kill anything, but they can still affect the world. When they grow more experienced with their magic they learn how to kill and harm other creatures. And to be able to summon and control a magical creature would take years of experience for any mage.

 

[cephalo]

When I was new to this mod, and it was time to build a certain mana node, I often chose randomly just to see what would happen. It was always somewhat deflating when I very often got something that I couldn't make use of. My only request is that every combination of mana node/spell level/magic unit do something useful and fun. I don't want to look at my brand new spell and think, "I will never ever use that in a million games."

 

[Tarquelne]

The new system seems to make a point of giving every religion access to Cure Disease... except CoE.

How about a "Buy black market potions." option for the Undercouncil? To give access to some limited cure-disease ability.

 

[Tzu Iop]

I would suggest to alter Wall of Stone in that way, as it adds a "Wall of Stone"-Promotion for all units in stack, that grant +30% defense strength and additional 20% defense strength (so that it is +50% total) when within city borders. Should last 1 Turn or until the unit moves or attacks. Numbers are subject to change, its only about the concept.

Also i would suggest as Force III Spell "Disintegrate Weapons" target stack loses all Weapon and Spellstaff Promotions.
And for Dimensional III "Creat Teleport Gate". Creats a dummy unit with some cargo space and the rebase ability or something like 6 movement points.

 

[Nikis-Knight]

Incidentally, I wouldn't be opposed to giving some civs (e.g. Luchuirp) or religions (RoK) the ability to get more mobile siege equipment (or Siege Golems).

That'd be a nice side effect of the repair spell, granting haste to seige units.

edit: Or an ideal force 1 promotion

 

[TheJopa]

Also i would suggest as Force III Spell "Disintegrate Weapons" target stack loses all Weapon and Spellstaff Promotions.

Rust removes weapons promotions, and adds negative 'rusted' promotion.

 

[MaxAstro]

I think most of these changes are a good idea. I will miss Summoners and I think that Archmages' limit should be upped to at least 5, but simplifying the spell system seems like a smart idea.

However, the new priests seem far too weak. The point of Priests before was that they had a diverse selection of spells that were useful in several different situations, making them an effective alternative to archmages. Overspecializing priests and limiting them to two generic spells and two unique spells greatly limits their usefulness. I vastly prefer the older priests, and think that while the new priests are a good idea to an extent, they need more spell variety.

In a possibly related note, if you get rid of Gaurdian Vines and Lifespark I will hate you forever. Not really, but these are two of my favorite spells. Both are permanent summons that serve a use other than straight combat (The medic 3 on the Lifespark has saved my ass SO many times), which are sorely lacking in FfH. If anything, there should be MORE non-combat summons instead of fewer.

I also agree with the idea one person had of increasing the number of spells per sphere to 4. Admittedly this would probably require adding a bunch more questionably useful spells, but it has the added plus of forcing you to choose between specializing a caster in one or two spheres, or branching out to cover a bunch of low level spells. And this gives an opportunity to add some more interesting summons (For example, the incredibly potent Spellstaff could be tier 4, and Enchantment could get a tier 2 or 3 spell that summons a Mud Golem, giving any civ access to a powerful worker.

If a system of four spells per sphere is implemented, it should definately NOT require a fourth level of caster. Instead, I'd recommend doing it in one of two ways: A) Tier 3 spells are in general only a bit more powerful than tier 2 spells, while tier 4 spells are VERY powerful. In this case, allow Mages to cast both tier 2 and 3 spells, and only Archmages to cast tier 4. B) Tier 3 spells are quite a bit more powerful than tier 2 spells, but tier 4 spells are only slightly more powerful (or just simply different in purpose) than tier 3 spells. In this case, allow Archmages to cast both tier 3 and 4 spells.

Anyway, there's my opinion on the whole matter.

 

[Kael]

One of the big problems with lifesparks is that it made preists/high priests weaker. You didnt really need to invest in a priest for healing, instead you just gave an archmage life 3 and you were set.

With the new system priests become even more important for their healing. That heal spell on high priests is awesome, and just the medic ability really makes them much more important.

Also remember that int he new system priests have less spells to pick from but they dont have to spend any promotions to get them. So they are free to spend all of their level up promotions on non-sphere promotions, makign them more effective in combat.

 

[MaxAstro]

That's actually another thing that bothers me: Why the !@#$ (pardon my French) are OO and AV priests healers? It makes ~no~ thematic sense at all for those priests to put emphasis on healing their allies. Maybe if AV had a spell that specifically healed demon or undead units, or if OO had a spell that was more thematically appropriate, like Hastur's Razor... but why would priests whose sole purpose is to bring about death, destruction, and the end of the world specialize in healing?

Also, as far as Lifespark goes, I would make it a divine spell, instead of a summon. At the ~very~ least, make it a unique spell for Yvain the Woodelf; he benefits greatly from having it. Gaurdian Vines might work as a unique spell for either him or Druids, too (or both).

 

[Blackmantle]

@ MaxAstro: That Idea might even be better than simply adding 2 Spells at Tier 3 (especially from a coding perspective and to balance the whole thing a bit better. For extra EP would be needed to reach some really nifty spells. The best of both worlds.).

I strongly agree though on no 4th Unit-Tier for Mages.

But i would rather stick with Sphere 3 and 4 at Archmages only
(and Tier 3 and 4 Divine Spells for High Priests, to give them some additional variety. Which I would agree is neded. Lest them become bland.).

For 2 Reasons.

Firstly for AI and New-Player friendlyiess (one of the main reasons for this change in the first place. And a really good one.).

And secondly so that what you feared about not so usefull Spells is not necessary.
Because at Archmage-Level the Spells dont need to be weak or less usefull (especially if a 4th Tier is added).
Its Archmages after all! So every civ can just have 3 / 6 of them (6/9 with liches).
Just go wild with your Ideas on Sphere Level 3 and 4. All the magic loving players will thank you for this one.



I still sugessted add 1 or more Civ-specific Spells at Tier 2 for some variety (number depending on Civ and most likely in Spheres the Palace provides so upgrading to get them is possible right out of the box. Without any additional nodes. Which is important for the AI as well. Less need to teach them which nodes to build.). So Tier 2 doesnt need to be boring. Just not that overwhelming and generic as it is now.
(I guess this one is planned allredy anyways.)


In the end by modifying it that way the magic system may end up with more real variety than before and more simple / easy to learn at once.




With Heal for all Priests Lifespark going will be ok i think. (and Tier 3 Priests could get Medic 3 as well if they don't have allredy.)
But I can understand those who will miss them.

 

[Mesix]

That's actually another thing that bothers me: Why the !@#$ (pardon my French) are OO and AV priests healers? It makes ~no~ thematic sense at all for those priests to put emphasis on healing their allies. Maybe if AV had a spell that specifically healed demon or undead units, or if OO had a spell that was more thematically appropriate, like Hastur's Razor... but why would priests whose sole purpose is to bring about death, destruction, and the end of the world specialize in healing?

Also, as far as Lifespark goes, I would make it a divine spell, instead of a summon. At the ~very~ least, make it a unique spell for Yvain the Woodelf; he benefits greatly from having it. Gaurdian Vines might work as a unique spell for either him or Druids, too (or both).

Myybe a spell that leaches life from an opponent to buf the priest would be more appropriate to AV and/or OO priests.

 

[Tarquelne]

That's actually another thing that bothers me: Why the !@#$ (pardon my French) are OO and AV priests healers? It makes ~no~ thematic sense at all for those priests to put emphasis on healing their allies.

"Game balance"? As a consequence of removing from arcane magic. Other than random events and a few buildings/Ufeatures aren't priests now the only source of cure disease?

I don't think AV or OO - and perhaps even Emp and Order - healers make much sense. Disease can be very nasty - I'd rather all priests healed than make disease so much more difficult for certain religions to fight.

The ideal solution might be to allow "evil" healing. Something that sacrifices a unit or has some other cost. With the new system I think at least the OO - and maybe CoE through the Undercouncil - should have access to disease curing. IMO the AV, since they cause so much of the disease, can just tough it out.

 

[Nikis-Knight]

I was thinking about Bannor priests and veil priests starting out with spirit guide and unholy taint, respectively. Adding Water walking to OO priests would also make sense. So, I figured maybe each missionary unit could get one self-only spell, but even better, why not make it availible to all units who have a religion characteristic? Then acolytes/priests would always get it, and some times others would too. Not too often so as to be overpowering, but it would be a neat bonus and make people excited when they found it.
Religious units get:

Empyrean--?
Order: spirit guide
Runes: bless weapon: self buff, +10% (weaker version of spiritual hammer)
Leaves: mesmerize (too powerful? maybe, but appropriate, and there are not so many animals by the time religions are founded)
OO: water walking
Veil: Unholy taint (would only be useful on caster units, but that's appropriate)
Esus: Hide, maybe, or stick to their recon spells they already have.

 

[kenken244]

I'd like it if priests were able to cast 1 or 2 spheres like an archmage so that they can still ahve a diverse amount of spells and you can choose wether to make a priest use many spells or be better in combat.

 

[Ur_Vile_Wedge]

Wow, I take a short break for the weekend and I see this when I return. It's an interesting idea, to say the least. I'm not 100% sure that I'd like it, but then again I almost never use magic, opting for metals most of the time anyway, so maybe that's a good thing.

Anyway, I came up with one idea, I don't know if it's possible to code, being more of an idea man than a programmer. (and actually, I don't know if it's good, I said I'm an idea man, not a clever one )


Ok, enough digression. How about this. Ax out all summon spells. There is only Adept->Mage->Archmage, with a variety of direct damage and support spells.

At some point on the tech tree, (You'd have to revise the tech tree for this, but the original idea calls for that anyway) you get Summoners. Summoners don't cast spells, not in the traditional sense anyway. Instead, they simply cast "summon" which has a random chance of creating a whole list of creatures, weighed down by which sorts of manas you have. (So if you're all fire, you will always get a fire elemental. Half fire, half water, you have a 50-50 chance of getting a fire elemental or a water elemental. Etc.) At least in the sort of fantasy setting that FFH is in, summoning is the magic work of the chaotic, the demonic, and the insane. IIRC only the two Sheim leaders, Kaelyn, and Hyborem start as Summoners. I guess Perpentech, as well as the adaptive guys could also take it. I would really like to see an emphasis on demonic/undead summoning, and give those guys no other magic abilities at all.


Feel free to shred me, of course
Ur_Vile_Wedge

 

[xienwolf]

I like the thought of all units with a certain religion type on them getting a special ability. Maybe for Empyrean simply Sentry by another name.

In the case of the spell casting a caster only permanent Promo, it ought to skip giving them the spell and just provide the promotion. I can't think of any way to lose the promotion offhand, so it'd just be a greyed out button sitting around for their entire life, and one more thing to click when you build them.

 

[civ_king]

In my humble opinion i would just say that you should merge the mage-conjurer tech trees.
very annoying to have to research 2 tech trees for 2 units. and if u do merge the promotions i would suggest leaving fireball and meteor shower. it just feels wrong as the sheim to haul in catapults. and as the Grigori the twin casted, empowered 5, meteor showers make them a good civilization to choose.

 

[Elm]

Well, Hasturs Razor is sort of an "evil" heal. Maybe that should be moved to OO and Veil high priests instead of Heal.