lost_civantares
[Insert Title]
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I thought we were the team who played with honor no matter what?
MIA Grand Strategy Meeting !
- Thread starter General_W
- Start date
classical_hero
In whom I trust
They are getting techs fast an we could lose our advantage if we allow this to continue. I will go through the agrrement to find a loophole, to see if we cn declare or they can declare. 
@lost. Well basically i am talking about amassing an army for an eventual declaration. I believe it is safer for us to gor for war than wait for other alternatives.
What would we have done had KISS handed over some cities to Dnuts, thus hindering our war with KISS?
@lost. Well basically i am talking about amassing an army for an eventual declaration. I believe it is safer for us to gor for war than wait for other alternatives.
What would we have done had KISS handed over some cities to Dnuts, thus hindering our war with KISS?
lost_civantares said:
Well, yes - we will not break a written deal, but if the Dnuts broke it already (as seems very likely), then we are not really bound by it anymore. The problem is that we have an awful lot of circumstantial evidence but no smoking gun. How much "reasonable doubt" does there have to be for us to find them not guilty?
classical_hero
In whom I trust
In real life, wars have been declared for far less.Chamnix said:
fe3333au
Deity
But we have chosen ... well at least the majority of us 
to act with honour.
I mentioned the option to generate debate
However as Chamnis mentioned, there is an overwhealming amount of circumstantional evidence to suggest that the Nuts have broken the deal already.
Question ... are we automatically informed when a mission to steal tech is unsuccessful ... is there a way for us to make it more difficult for the other teams to steal ???
to act with honour.I mentioned the option to generate debate
However as Chamnis mentioned, there is an overwhealming amount of circumstantional evidence to suggest that the Nuts have broken the deal already.
Question ... are we automatically informed when a mission to steal tech is unsuccessful ... is there a way for us to make it more difficult for the other teams to steal ???
Sometimes we are informed - there is some probability that the steal attempt is unsuccessful but was unnoticed, and there is some probabilty we are informed that an attempt has taken place.
I don't think there is any way to make it more difficult.
I don't think there is any way to make it more difficult.
General_W
Councilor & Merlot Noble
I've come up with the perfect wiggle on our treaty! 
If you read our treaty closely, all it says is
Nothing in there about declaring war!
I say we "close the embassy" (declare war) – but send a note saying we are still abiding by our treaty and will not invade them before turn 185 (and that they should consider this their 10 turns notice of our exiting the treaty).
We prevent them from spying, and are still technically abiding by our treaty.
The way I read the treaty, it MUST last till turn 179 – but could have ended on turn 179 if we had notified them on turn 169.
Bottom line – soonest we can cancel is 10 turns from right now… t185.
We might as well cancel – try to put some fear into them so they militarize a little bit.
Here's the treaty to look at for yourself…
If you read our treaty closely, all it says is
Nothing in there about declaring war!
I say we "close the embassy" (declare war) – but send a note saying we are still abiding by our treaty and will not invade them before turn 185 (and that they should consider this their 10 turns notice of our exiting the treaty).
We prevent them from spying, and are still technically abiding by our treaty.
The way I read the treaty, it MUST last till turn 179 – but could have ended on turn 179 if we had notified them on turn 169.
Bottom line – soonest we can cancel is 10 turns from right now… t185.
We might as well cancel – try to put some fear into them so they militarize a little bit.
Here's the treaty to look at for yourself…
Spoiler Page one of the Nut treaty :
Oh, my - we will certainly deserve our reputation for looking for loopholes if we do this. I suppose we could even build frigates and start bombarding their improvements as long as we ended the turn outside their territory. We could move our cannons just outside their territory and bombard away as long as we only attacked infrastructure and not units.
So is preventing them from spying worth giving them war happiness? And are we really willing to toss aside any pretense of being "honorable"? Yes, we will have followed the letter of our treaty, but I think honor would cover a little more than that.
We fortunately should have at least a turn to consider this evil ploy. They either just finished Steam in 4 turns or just stole Steam. Either way, their Treasury should be fairly barren, so we shouldn't have to jump on this turn.
Regardless, my understanding of the treaty was always that we couldn't even give notice until 179, but I can see General_W's interpretation. If we are using his interpretation, then we should give notice immediately in any case.
EDIT - if someone has access to the save... how much would it cost to investigate the cheapest Dnut town? I don't really care about which town, but it might be useful to see how much gold they have now and what their sliders are set at.
I might be able to check the save in an hour...
I don't think there's anything wrong with Declaring War, as long as we don't physically attack any units before the 10-turns thingy.
Very clever, General_W. Also, as we're not declaring war to manipulate war happiness, there shouldn't be any problem with the ruleset.
So I'd say that we should all vote YES in the DNUT poll, and shut down the embassy.
It might also be appropriate to mention that the DNUT embassy in Athens has been closed for health reasons... or eminent domain issues (the governement of MIA needs to put a railway through the property the embassy is sitting on
)
I don't think there's anything wrong with Declaring War, as long as we don't physically attack any units before the 10-turns thingy.
Very clever, General_W. Also, as we're not declaring war to manipulate war happiness, there shouldn't be any problem with the ruleset.
So I'd say that we should all vote YES in the DNUT poll, and shut down the embassy.
It might also be appropriate to mention that the DNUT embassy in Athens has been closed for health reasons... or eminent domain issues (the governement of MIA needs to put a railway through the property the embassy is sitting on
)
General_W
Councilor & Merlot Noble
Well – my personal take is that they all hate us anyway…
I don't like the idea of directly breaking our word… even if this "wiggling" isn't a whole lot better. And besides, we're all but positive the Dnuts have totally and flagrantly disregarded our treaty.
So I say – spy on a cheap city – then "close the embassy"
It may not be a problem to wait... but I don't see any real compelling reason to wait either. I'd vote to resolve this immediately... let's not gamble. Make them research espionage if they want to spy.
I don't like the idea of directly breaking our word… even if this "wiggling" isn't a whole lot better. And besides, we're all but positive the Dnuts have totally and flagrantly disregarded our treaty.
So I say – spy on a cheap city – then "close the embassy"
It may not be a problem to wait... but I don't see any real compelling reason to wait either. I'd vote to resolve this immediately... let's not gamble. Make them research espionage if they want to spy.
I think the most compelling reason to wait is that I don't really want to make a decision of this magnitude without giving everyone an opportunity to weigh in. Not to mention that although some ministers may feel comfortable riding roughshod over the Constitution, others of us fervently follow the rules.
.
General_W
Councilor & Merlot Noble
… said the President who would be King….
Yeah – as I said, I don't see a big problem with waiting a turn or two. It's probably the better part of wisdom to wait.
I'm withholding my vote to wait and listen to other views.
Yeah – as I said, I don't see a big problem with waiting a turn or two. It's probably the better part of wisdom to wait.
I'm withholding my vote to wait and listen to other views.
Let's investigate a city and see how much cash they have. If they have more than x (1000?), then we should shut down the embassy immediately. I really don't think we want to give them Industrialization, right? That's what we'd be risking by leaving the embassy open each turn until we decide otherwise.
So in essence, I see a compelling reason to act promptly.
So in essence, I see a compelling reason to act promptly.
lost_civantares
[Insert Title]
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If it is that desperate I guess I can grudingly agree to war, we can not give up the lead that we have gotten by the Golden Age, but how much difference will four turns make (asked by someone who hasn't played civ3 in over year)? I thought we wanted to go for a space victory anyway, not conquer the world.
There are a few Dnut towns that only cost 12 gold to investigate - since that is less than we spend every morning on the Presidential Breakfast, I will investigate one of them. If the team disagrees, then I won't have steak with my eggs tomorrow.
fe3333au
Deity
I will fund the peaking from the Black Purse ... make it the cheapest city Maple Frosted
EDIT ... alreday done ... but still let the Foreign Offices spend the gold ... we can't have our President missing breakfast
EDIT ... alreday done ... but still let the Foreign Offices spend the gold ... we can't have our President missing breakfast
donsig
Low level intermediary
Responding to a post Chamnix made in the domestic thread. It seems this is the more appropriate thread for my response.
I understand that part of the plan. But to do that we will need to occupy a city on Battle Island or build a fleet of aircraft carriers. There are only so many Nutter cities our bombers will be able to reach from Greece. Since Ithaca to Apple Crumb is only four tiles that seems to be the natural invasion route, especially since bombers based in Apple Crumb will be able to reach the Nutter capital and its environs. The Nutters will have infantry, artillery and cavalry to try to keep us off Battle Island. Cavalry can be effective against infantry (more so against marines) if backed by enough arty. My point is we will need more than bombers. Sure we can delat ToE while we research two techs, get two free and have all our flight prerequisites in 8 turns. We can have flight 6 turns after that and start rushing bombers. Then what do we do? Research amphibious warfare and then replaceable parts? That's a half a dozen turns of bombarding coastal cities before we can even start making infantry! Do we need that much bombing time before we invade?
That's alot of military talk for the domestic thread but I'm trying to get arund to talking about gold. If we spend our gold rushing bombers we can't spend it onother things like upgrading cannons. We should decide now what role arty will play in all this. If we're not going to have enough gold to upgrade those cannons we have then let's get rid of them. We're paying 110gpt for unit upkeep right now. We should really reduce that as much as we can because gold will help us win faster. Between domestic workers and cannons and hoplites we may never upgrade we can bring this expense down to zero. More money for bombers or whatever.
Finally, I don't think we should hold off on replaceable parts. If we get that tech now we can start building infantry now.
Chamnix said:
I understand that part of the plan. But to do that we will need to occupy a city on Battle Island or build a fleet of aircraft carriers. There are only so many Nutter cities our bombers will be able to reach from Greece. Since Ithaca to Apple Crumb is only four tiles that seems to be the natural invasion route, especially since bombers based in Apple Crumb will be able to reach the Nutter capital and its environs. The Nutters will have infantry, artillery and cavalry to try to keep us off Battle Island. Cavalry can be effective against infantry (more so against marines) if backed by enough arty. My point is we will need more than bombers. Sure we can delat ToE while we research two techs, get two free and have all our flight prerequisites in 8 turns. We can have flight 6 turns after that and start rushing bombers. Then what do we do? Research amphibious warfare and then replaceable parts? That's a half a dozen turns of bombarding coastal cities before we can even start making infantry! Do we need that much bombing time before we invade?
That's alot of military talk for the domestic thread but I'm trying to get arund to talking about gold. If we spend our gold rushing bombers we can't spend it onother things like upgrading cannons. We should decide now what role arty will play in all this. If we're not going to have enough gold to upgrade those cannons we have then let's get rid of them. We're paying 110gpt for unit upkeep right now. We should really reduce that as much as we can because gold will help us win faster. Between domestic workers and cannons and hoplites we may never upgrade we can bring this expense down to zero. More money for bombers or whatever.
Finally, I don't think we should hold off on replaceable parts. If we get that tech now we can start building infantry now.
You may be right that bombers may not be able to reach everywhere. I thought they had better range than they do, but they do have a range of 10. I think this shows everywhere that will be in bombing range from the cities on our continent:
So, while it is not just the Nuts coastline in the west, it also is not as close to their core as I'd like on their eastern half. Perhaps a couple carriers will be in order.
Regardless, with respect to military, I still don't think we attack until marines - it gets so much easier when we can attack from the sea and not have to face 100% of their military upon landing. Replaceable Parts is a prerequisite for Amphibious War so we certainly will get it.
However, I think we want Flight first. We can make lots of use of bombers without infantry/artillery, but I don't think we have any use at all for infantry/artillery before we get bombers. They would just be sitting around adding unit costs without doing anything for a while. The only reason I would consider Replaceable Parts before Flight is to get the double worker speed, but I think it is more important to get as many turns of Flight with no Nut air defenses as possible.
With respect to money, the savings is definitely not to be made by eliminating workers right now - getting everything cleared, irrigated and railroaded will be worth much more money than the workers are costing us. I suppose we could disband a few units, but I would prefer not too many - essentially they are our safety net right now. I don't think 120 gpt is at all excessive for unit costs at this point.
So, while it is not just the Nuts coastline in the west, it also is not as close to their core as I'd like on their eastern half. Perhaps a couple carriers will be in order.
Regardless, with respect to military, I still don't think we attack until marines - it gets so much easier when we can attack from the sea and not have to face 100% of their military upon landing. Replaceable Parts is a prerequisite for Amphibious War so we certainly will get it.
However, I think we want Flight first. We can make lots of use of bombers without infantry/artillery, but I don't think we have any use at all for infantry/artillery before we get bombers. They would just be sitting around adding unit costs without doing anything for a while. The only reason I would consider Replaceable Parts before Flight is to get the double worker speed, but I think it is more important to get as many turns of Flight with no Nut air defenses as possible.
With respect to money, the savings is definitely not to be made by eliminating workers right now - getting everything cleared, irrigated and railroaded will be worth much more money than the workers are costing us. I suppose we could disband a few units, but I would prefer not too many - essentially they are our safety net right now. I don't think 120 gpt is at all excessive for unit costs at this point.
donsig
Low level intermediary
This all seems to make sense, especially now that I know we have Leo's and upgrading will not be as expensive as I thought.
So now we're talking about adding carriers into the mix. They will need naval support won't they? Since we're using this term to soften the Nutters up a bit (we should be conducting bombing raids before the end of the term) and to prepare for our invasion, shouldn't we start deciding how many carriers and escorts we will need so we can begin construction when we have the proper technologies?
So now we're talking about adding carriers into the mix. They will need naval support won't they? Since we're using this term to soften the Nutters up a bit (we should be conducting bombing raids before the end of the term) and to prepare for our invasion, shouldn't we start deciding how many carriers and escorts we will need so we can begin construction when we have the proper technologies?
classical_hero
In whom I trust
This plan gets more complicated by the day. I think that you might need to think about getting Tanks.
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