Mickey Mouse Degrees

[Formaldehyde]

Edit: No, the number of books read by engineers is NOT an opinion.

Well, duh. But since the data obviously cannot be found by either of us, we must speculate. Hence, my usage of the word "bet":

I think you understand my point though. I bet that in general engineers are not prolific readers, and I also bet the same would be true for business majors. I don't think this is a coincidence.

Once again, if you can find actual facts which show this is not the case, go right ahead. Otherwise, quit whining about my opinions, which I fully admit are based on speculation and my own personal experiences.

 

[Earthling]

Yes, I also said I bet that you're off the mark too. And you still haven't presented much of an opinion other than "I think engineers/business majors/whomever else are stupid" which kinda started this off a few pages off - I know I can't change your opinions, but the "speculations" you've made are distinctly different. There is a lot of data that suggests you are wrong about engineers not reading very much. First, engineers tend to score better than average on tests like the SAT, ACT, and GRE, (writing/language, math is obvious) and have higher IQ than many other professions on average. Then, you have lots of data that shows that college graduates overall read more than the rest of the population; professionally engineers may certainly put up similar numbers to scientists on following technology/developments. General reading also correlates with wealth/income, where post-college engineers likewise score high.

 

[Formaldehyde]

Yes, I also said I bet that you're off the mark too. And you still haven't presented much of an opinion other than "I think engineers/business majors/whomever else are stupid" which kinda started this off a few pages off.

You mean the straw man you manufactured after completely misunderstanding my remarks?

Once again, I have neither stated nor insuated anything of of the sort. I have also made this clear numerous times.

 

[fugazi]

See Spence, 1973. Job Market Signaling

A degree is just a signal of quality of the worker. It doesn't actually need to impart in actual skill to have value.

Cheers

This. I thought this was pretty much known by all students, but after reading the ongoing discussion here I guess that isn't true.

 

[Earthling]

This. I thought this was pretty much known by all students, but after reading the ongoing discussion here I guess that isn't true.

The discussion here recently has had nothing to do with that, though it does address the original OP of whether the guy will get value out of his degree.

Once again, I have neither stated nor insuated anything of of the sort.

Hmm, really sounds like it. Honestly I think other users have already pointed out it's your own fault when you post rambling or vague insults, and then all your "speculations" or claims of fact turn out incorrect. Let's look at some assertions/"opinions" you gave:

People who actually want to get a well-rounded education instead of a good paying job as an engineer or businessman certainly do. It also explains why so many conservatives end up in in these disciplines in college. They really don't want to become better educated like the "elites" typically do. They simply want to make big bucks. Many are even so ignorant that they think they already know everything which is important to know, and so they actually resent their "liberal" professors showing them otherwise.

What could possibly go wrong with a bunch of poorly educated engineers and business majors in charge of corporate America?

 

[nonconformist]

Once again, I am not claiming anything about the sciences with this particular issue, since the difference between a BA and a BS degree typically isn't all that great. My issue is with engineering, business, nursing, etc. Majors which have so much applications-oriented material to cover that the students typically do not have enough time to pursue a liberal arts education, as most other college majors typically do.

Screw "pursuing a liberal arts education".
I haven't attended a "liberal art" lesson or whatnot in 5 years, and in our unis, Liberal Arts is not taught to non-Arts people.

I do a very applied subject, and have not been taught the liberal arts, yet none of us are disadvantaged.
In fact, we think the Arts and Liberal Arts are way too easy.

 

[Formaldehyde]

Hmm, really sounds like it.

Ah. You apparently don't understand the difference between being "stupid" and being "poorly educated" / "ignorant" when compared to liberal arts majors who have received far more variety in their college education. I should have known given your propensity to completely misunderstand what I post.

 

[Earthling]

To quote the immortal Comic Book Guy: "Ooh a sarcasm detector! That's a real useful invention."

Essentially, I was dismissing your statements on engineers and businessmen being stupid vs. ignorant vs. conservative or whatever else you wanted to claim as vague and frivolous. You'll note several other posters basically agree these are just random insults obviously without much thought, or basis in any facts behind them. Sorry you happened to dislike engineers or something when you went to college. And you know you're just trying to claim a semantic victory that your several posts about these people being ignorant, greedy, vapid, uneducated, etc... didn't also "insinuate" some underlying theme of "these majors are just stupid, mine was better."

 

[MobBoss]

Very interesting thread

 

[Formaldehyde]

And you know you're just trying to claim a semantic victory that your several posts about these people being ignorant, greedy, vapid, uneducated, etc... didn't also "insinuate" some underlying theme of "these majors are just stupid, mine was better."

I merely pointed out that you apparently don't even know the difference between being "stupid" and being relatively uneducated when compared to people with much broader liberal arts educations. And that you have been incessantly tilting at imaginary windmills due to this obvious misunderstanding of my own opinions.

 

[Earthling]

Apparently there would be a significant market for selling sarcasm detectors to people like you then, maybe it would be a worthwhile invention and make a lot of money. I know the dictionary has already covered your need to understand the word "irony"...it'd be hard to outsell Webster...I guess all the "ignorant" business majors and engineers will have to think on it. After all, you think they somehow still succeed in making money as that's the only goal, and is universally the same across these fields, unlike the diversity of liberal arts, right?

 

[Traitorfish]

I suspect that Formaldehyde and Earthling may be arguing at crosspoints, to some degree- as far as I can tell, when Form referred to engineering/business majors as being "poorly educated", he meant a relatively narrow education, rather than a shallow one. The contrary, view, however, is that breadth of education does not equate to value of education, and that a narrower but deeper education is at least equal to a shallower but broader one of the same overall "volume".
Both sides make a fair point, but it strikes me that at least some of the argument stems from a clash of values, rather than a conflict of perception.
And I get to say this, because I sit in that architectural limbo between arts and engineering that allows me to pass comment on both with self-declared impunity.

 

[Earthling]

Ias far as I can tell, when Form referred to engineering/business majors as being "poorly educated", he meant a relatively narrow education, rather than a shallow one.

I'd ask any poster who consider themselves reasonable/impartial to read Form's posts and think that the only meaning behind them was the difference between a "narrow versus a broad education" and not overall dismissive and negative remarks. It also seems likely that insulting "conservatives" and "businessmen and engineers" started when a couple of other posters showed up in the thread...

 

[Formaldehyde]

I suspect that Formaldehyde and Earthling may be arguing at crosspoints, to some degree- as far as I can tell, when Form referred to engineering/business majors as being "poorly educated", he meant a relatively narrow education, rather than a shallow one. The contrary, view, however, is that breadth of education does not equate to value of education, and that a narrower but deeper education is at least equal to a shallower but broader one of the same overall "volume".
Both sides make a fair point, but it strikes me that at least some of the argument stems from a clash of values, rather than a conflict of perception.
And I get to say this, because I sit in that architectural limbo between arts and engineering that allows me to pass comment on both with self-declared impunity.

Indeed. Thank you for summarizing this ongoing absurdity quite elequently.

 

[Earthling]

So your opinion isn't that liberal arts majors are better educated, less ignorant, and more equipped to "life in general" or however you'd put it? Cause saying "I revise my earlier statement" and never specifying what that is, when meanwhile like 10 posts all indicate otherwise, just sounds like trying to chase away a line of discussion.

Edit: Formaldehyde had something about "straw men" and "not what I was arguing" in the post above before changing it.

 

[nonconformist]

I suspect that Formaldehyde and Earthling may be arguing at crosspoints, to some degree- as far as I can tell, when Form referred to engineering/business majors as being "poorly educated", he meant a relatively narrow education, rather than a shallow one. The contrary, view, however, is that breadth of education does not equate to value of education, and that a narrower but deeper education is at least equal to a shallower but broader one of the same overall "volume".
Both sides make a fair point, but it strikes me that at least some of the argument stems from a clash of values, rather than a conflict of perception.
And I get to say this, because I sit in that architectural limbo between arts and engineering that allows me to pass comment on both with self-declared impunity.

Seriously, I'll take an electronico, an engineer, a scientist over a liberal artist anytime.
While the former tend to seem more aloof, in fact most of them are very intelligent, practical, and deep, but in a different manner.

Liberal arts receive a wider education, and are much happier to talk about it, and may have knowledge of a lot of specifics, and concepts in an academic fashion, when engaged in debate, they essentially regurgitate their education word for word, and when required to analyse, or comprehend, or even change their views and such, are completely lost, and can't formulate an answer, whereas the former group are much more practical and adaptable, and will hold a much better conversation.

I've talked to both groups, and when I start probing liberal artists on further concepts, or just debating or just chatting bollocks, they tend to get very stuck and fall back on very narrow interpretations (usually a book or school of thought they've written a dissertation on), and tend to be repetitive.
I enjoy talking to lawyers, scientists, mathematicians, and such a lot more.

 

[Mise]

I agree that Formaldehyde's comments were grossly ignorant. I'll let the reader decide whether by "ignorant" I mean "narrow but deep" or "worryingly uninformed and dramatically wrong".

 

[RedRalph]

'Mickey' means 'penis' here.

 

[Mise]

'Mickey' means 'penis' here.

Funny, it means "Irish" everywhere else.

 

[nonconformist]

And "mouse" means "inserted into President Obama in a phonebooth, while ex-Kaiser of Germany, Wilhelm the II, wanks through the letterbox of Mikhail Gorbachev, providing an amusing New york times cartoon"