Military Doctrines / Promotion System Rework

Military Doctrines / Promotion System Rework 1.703

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@arch.mbadawy I'm thinking this is the issue, you can either use the CQUI Community edition (the one that is working) I recommend this mod anyways or press 'd' while in game and the doctrines screen should work. This is because I want it too be compatible with other mods so I don't have to replace the launchbar.

@Rajendran That number is the barbarian XP cap, so you can't earn any more xp after that number. The XP rate is just how much XP you would earn from the base game (I havn't adjusted that). You can find the rate in the GlobalParameters.xml civilization game file, if you want to change those rates by putting something like this "UPDATE GlobalParameters SET Value = 1 WHERE Name = "EXPERIENCE_NOT_COMBAT_RANGED";" into the DoctrineData.sql file. This effects everyone though. I don't believe the Ai gets it at a faster rate they just can make a bunch of units and are in a constant state of war.
 
1. Earlier I highlighted my game crashed mid-way. I think the cause may be related to CQUI. It not the first time the game crashed when using with CQUI. I also noticed that the turn rate is slower when using CQUI.

2. The AI promotion indicated on the Warrior/cavalry indicated ‘7-10’ value whereas my have not even earned the ‘1’ promotion value. And I also noticed this difference more with Cyrus civ than other other civilization. Nevertheless, I am ok with that since I want to play with a more tougher AI and at the same time I receive my promotion gradually.

3. As to the global parameters setting, I will try to modify the value to give it a try. Anyway, is there a way to apply these parameters to human player only.

Ewok, thank you very much for your timely response. Your guidance has helped my in many areas.
 
Well each doctrine applys a bonus and each bonus applies that number so likely they had a combination of doctrines and veteran status. You can apply it too human only but it would take some lua knowledge, so its not anything particularly easy. Glad I can help!

The turn times are probably slower with my mod too, you can't play it in multiplayer without desyncs which I'm not sure what is the issue maybe too many loops I don't know.
 
Thank you for your response. I browsed through the GlobalParameters file and realised that any changes in this file will ultimately affects all players.

I just started a new game with your mod, and it seems like all are working well though AI promotion rate is slightly faster than human player.
 
Hi, I love the idea of this mod, and it's really fun to play with. It makes combat and wars a lot more interesting. I do think the mod as it stands is really unbalanced though. It makes the game too easy because the boosts stack up to crazy numbers (swordsman hitting for 100+ attack power!?). Playing on deity felt like playing vanilla civ on settler :/

I'm not sure how exactly this mod would be balanced better. Perhaps a combination of:
1. Increasing the amount of exp for each doctrine. Also make it exponential so it's much harder to stack doctrines
2. Reduce the amount of attack power given for each doctrine / promotion. Right now the doctrines give WAY too much of a combat advantage, especially when stacked.
 
I'm thinking about reducing the bonuses (#2), its interesting because it seems that if you focus military its OP as you say but if you try to play peacefully it is really difficult as Rajendran has pointed out. So maybe I need to rethink some of the bonuses which can hopefully help halt the giant advantage from doctrine focus.
 
Ewok-Bacon-Bits said:
I'm thinking about reducing the bonuses (#2), its interesting because it seems that if you focus military its OP as you say but if you try to play peacefully it is really difficult as Rajendran has pointed out. So maybe I need to rethink some of the bonuses which can hopefully help halt the giant advantage from doctrine focus.
Click to expand...
I'm a peaceful player myself so I don't get as many promotions as the ai built I think that's fine. War mongering players should be rewarded for their battles is you all me.

I haven't really thought about it from a mathematical perspective but aren't the bonuses relatively small compared to standard unit combat strengths in the first place (at least middle to late game)?

Guess what I'm saying is that I like it the way it is for now...

\Skodkim
 
I think the bonuses may be slightly higher compared to vanilla promotions if you stack them together but most of the promotions in vanilla are fairly situational too (and many worthless).

I will have to play a few games with it too get an idea before I do any changes because you may be right too, part of it might just be everyone has a different playstyle.
 
Ewok-Bacon-Bits said:
I'm thinking about reducing the bonuses (#2), its interesting because it seems that if you focus military its OP as you say but if you try to play peacefully it is really difficult as Rajendran has pointed out. So maybe I need to rethink some of the bonuses which can hopefully help halt the giant advantage from doctrine focus.
Click to expand...

I've played a few games post patch, with Quo's tweaks, AI+ and MOAR units along with Military Doctrines. When playing the AI on a high level (Immortal, Diety), the promotion system just provides way too much of an advantage. In the early classical age, I am facing units that have a promotion level of 10-12, which is almost doubling their strength. Because of the stacking and the absolute value based combat system, some units play at 2 eras above base, which is probably not what you intended.

An idea for this mod -- which I really am enjoying significantly FYI -- is the following:

1. Unit based promotions are in increments of 2 strength, not escalating (first promotion worth +2, second promotion worth +2, etc.) instead of first promotion being +3, second being +4, etc.-- by the time you get to the 5th promotion, you would be +10 instead of where you would be today which is +25. An alternative if you are escalating is to start at +1 vs. +3 --> this would lead to a +15 vs +25 after 5 promotions.

I'm thinking about making some edits here and seeing how it plays out in tests. I want promotions to be meaningful, but in my mind, it is #2 below that is the real advantage to your mod/system.

2. All doctrines should be focused on army/air/naval wide advantages which represent a "combat learning" vs. a straight modifier. I would think of this like technological breakthrus -- which allow for different combat experiences vs. a combat ratings modifier. For example, they could impact movement, walls scaling, ignoring ZOC, move and shoot, blitz, etc. Situational bonuses could also be applied -- but mutually exclusive and unstackable (so, maybe +5 combat on desert) -- if you had this selected with +5 woods for example, you would only get one since each tile has a unique value.

Doing this allows you to customize your army/air/fleet based on experiences, allows for combat experience to have a meaningful impact to strength, but is not overwhelming. It also allows you to potentially fight your game and play the map -- which it what the game authors intended.

I do want to emphasize that I think your mod is great, and one of the best (along with MOAR, AI+, and Quos) that are in the must have category.
 
1. I think this is a good idea, I was thinking of having a line of promotions (so there is at least some choice) that would deal with logistics and change how fast they healed instead of strength too.

2. So I had this idea before but right now we can't remove promotions or abilities which is really strange. So if I did go the mutual exclusive route you couldn't switch between them midgame. But I could make it mutually exclusive without the ability to switch in game. Maybe by making it so you could only select 3 for first tier then 2 second and 1 for last. With that I could also make some of it more exclusive to certain classes so I have more room to as you say select tactical options rather then just straight strength.
 
ggalindo001 said:
1. Unit based promotions are in increments of 2 strength, not escalating (first promotion worth +2, second promotion worth +2, etc.) instead of first promotion being +3, second being +4, etc.-- by the time you get to the 5th promotion, you would be +10 instead of where you would be today which is +25. An alternative if you are escalating is to start at +1 vs. +3 --> this would lead to a +15 vs +25 after 5 promotions.
Click to expand...
Wouldn't that leave promotions more or less useless for late game units?

I haven't noticed big problems myself on Immortal level but based on your description I agree that there may be need for some tweaks. A simple solutions could also be to raise the XP requirements for later promotions, i.e. go from 50-140-230-320-410... to something like 50-150-270-390-510-...

\Skodkim
 
Ewok-Bacon-Bits updated Military Doctrines / Promotion System Rework with a new update entry:

Changed the hotkey to x instead of d

Changed the hotkey to x instead of d
Click to expand...

Read the rest of this update entry...


EDIT:

I didn't add any changes yet but I wanted to share what I was thinking of changing. I'm going to add another line of individual promotion options which is logistical so you can choose between straight strength and healing faster just so there is some choice involved instead of just clicking.

Right now getting all promotions gives +21 Strength which according to the combat formula will do about 80 damage to a unit of the same strength. I'm going to change it as suggested to +2 for each one and the last one will be +3 so that will become +11 strength which will do about 45 damage instead.

I also will keep the same costs for early doctrines but then exponentially make them more expensive as skodkim suggested (though I think you were suggesting that for individual promotions?) so its a bit harder to get many doctrines. I think this is easier then doing mutually exclusive at least for now.

I'm not sure what your guys opinions are about those things.
 
Last edited:
Ewok-Bacon-Bits said:
Ewok-Bacon-Bits updated Military Doctrines / Promotion System Rework with a new update entry:

Changed the hotkey to x instead of d



Read the rest of this update entry...


EDIT:

I didn't add any changes yet but I wanted to share what I was thinking of changing. I'm going to add another line of individual promotion options which is logistical so you can choose between straight strength and healing faster just so there is some choice involved instead of just clicking.

Right now getting all promotions gives +21 Strength which according to the combat formula will do about 80 damage to a unit of the same strength. I'm going to change it as suggested to +2 for each one and the last one will be +3 so that will become +11 strength which will do about 45 damage instead.

I also will keep the same costs for early doctrines but then exponentially make them more expensive as skodkim suggested (though I think you were suggesting that for individual promotions?) so its a bit harder to get many doctrines. I think this is easier then doing mutually exclusive at least for now.

I'm not sure what your guys opinions are about those things.
Click to expand...

I think you're on to something here - sound like good suggestions (and I meant doctrines) :)

Skodkim
 
Ewok-Bacon-Bits updated Military Doctrines / Promotion System Rework with a new update entry:

1.7

- Added a newline of promotions so there is some choice there, they will give healing (logistics)

- Strength promotions were reduced to prevent units from becoming to OP

- Increased the expotential cost of doctrines to prevent armies from becoming to OP (the first doctrine should be the same)
Click to expand...

Read the rest of this update entry...
EDIT:

How about now :D

I had some of it done but people on steam found some errors with the fall update.
 
Playing the newest version (v1.7) and I noticed that you forgot to change "if bBarbarian and xpItem >= 140 then" to "if bBarbarian and xpItem >= 160 then" in DoctrineEvents.lua (160 seems to be the requirement for doctrine number 2 now).

\Skodkim
 
The idea from the mod is great, but you need to tweak the numbers as soon as possible, the AI cheats promotions in higher difficulties, this mean they are having "Special Forces" Doctrine at medieval era, that is absolutely insanity as + 11 strength to every unit is basically impossible to fight against
I think no single doctrine should be higher than 5 strength, those doctrines are already powerful since they hit every unit they don't need to be + 11 strength too.

Tweak the number in every doctrine, 5s should become 3s, and 7s and 11s should become 5s, also with your mod cavalry is useless, you can't get doctrines to them since AI will have elastic defenses the time you can start to build them, giving no chance to get xp with them and making the entire class useless besides to pillage tiles.

Ideally Doctrines should be locked by technology, that way we could make them powerfull but more fair but i guess that would be hard as hell to accomplish (no knowledge of modding), ATM i can't use the mod simple because the numbers.

Edit. So i will show the state of my latest run with your mod.
I planned to play Militaristic France and did so, beat Poland at classical and enveloped her to finish latter, the AI started to get so much XP without Wars and now they have higher Tier Doctrines making the war unfun, it is still totally winnable since the AI is still vulnerable to the player but it would be a slog.

Immortal Dificulty

https://imgur.com/a/3jU0g
 
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