Misandrism

[Perfection]

Well, in divorce if it is the woman's fault then the man should have custody, if it is the man's fault the woman should have custody. In the case of the law equality should mean equal punishments.

Divorce as practiced now does not follow such a framework. One might disagree about whether no-fault divorces should be provided, but I'm operating here under presumption that no-fault divorces exist and that we are not going to change that.

My main point is that beliefs about gender differences can have real world consequences that cause people to act unfairly toward people of a certain gender and that as such it is important to consider those consequences when discussing views of gender.

 

[amadeus]

Society is slowly balancing itself out. Up until fairly recently women couldn't even vote! Anywhere!

Neither could men.

 

[civ_king]

Cases where men are raped (regardless of whether by women or other men) tend to not get reported because (apparently?) men are reluctant to do it because they think if they say they were raped, it's 'unmanly'.

An interesting point, and one I generally agree with, particularly concerning 'chivalry' and stuff. It's a point a cousin of mine has a very, very, very, very, very evident hostility towards for whatever reason. Personally, for me, I don't mind following 'chivalry', firstly because it hasn't cost me much yet - but one should try to be polite to most people regardless of gender anyways, and if there's a girl I'm interested in, of course I'd try to be a bit nicer to her. For me, chivalry isn't stupid as my cousin says - it's stupid being stupid, really.

I'm generally attracted to more assertive women anyways... But anyhow, yeah, that's an important point I think doesn't get emphasized enough. Equal rights? Equal opportunities? Sure. But sometimes you can't have absolute and true equality because of some natural differences between guys and gals, such as in the example you stated above (though I would say there probably are a few cases where a woman could pull it off... ). Unfortunately some people would cry that example as 'sexist' without understanding the reasoning behind it.

Chivalry has three areas,

• Duties to countrymen and fellow Christians: this contains virtues such as mercy, courage, valor, fairness, protection of the weak and the poor, and in the servant-hood of the knight to his lord. This also brings with it the idea of being willing to give one’s life for another’s; whether he would be giving his life for a poor man or his lord.
  
• Duties to women: this is probably the most familiar aspect of chivalry. This would contain what is often called courtly love, the idea that the knight is to serve a lady, and after her all other ladies. Most especially in this category is a general gentleness and graciousness to all women.
  
• Duties to God: this would contain being faithful to God, protecting the innocent, being faithful to the church, being the champion of good against evil, being generous and obeying God above the feudal lord.

I'm not seeing the bad parts except perhaps the outdated "lord" part

Divorce as practiced now does not follow such a framework. One might disagree about whether no-fault divorces should be provided, but I'm operating here under presumption that no-fault divorces exist and that we are not going to change that.

My main point is that beliefs about gender differences can have real world consequences that cause people to act unfairly toward people of a certain gender and that as such it is important to consider those consequences when discussing views of gender.

Why would people divorce if there wasn't a problem?

 

[Perfection]

There can be a problem without one of the spouses clearly being at fault.

 

[civ_king]

There can be a problem without one of the spouses clearly being at fault.

Like?

 

[Perfection]

They want to screw other people.

 

[cybrxkhan]

Chivalry has three areas,

• Duties to countrymen and fellow Christians: this contains virtues such as mercy, courage, valor, fairness, protection of the weak and the poor, and in the servant-hood of the knight to his lord. This also brings with it the idea of being willing to give one’s life for another’s; whether he would be giving his life for a poor man or his lord.
• Duties to women: this is probably the most familiar aspect of chivalry. This would contain what is often called courtly love, the idea that the knight is to serve a lady, and after her all other ladies. Most especially in this category is a general gentleness and graciousness to all women.
• Duties to God: this would contain being faithful to God, protecting the innocent, being faithful to the church, being the champion of good against evil, being generous and obeying God above the feudal lord.

I'm not seeing the bad parts except perhaps the outdated "lord" part

Several centuries ago in Western Europe, yes, that's what chivalry was.

Nowadays, however, "chivalry" colloquially refers to guys being nice to girls and doing things like opening the door for them. The debate here is whether "chivalry" is just a double standard that forces men to be pleasant to women when women don't need to be nice to men per se. Some people, like my cousin, vehemently believe it is a double standard that disgustingly helps women try to get an upper hand over men - not that I necessarily agree with that. I don't completely disagree, however; if I'm walking by and some random girl suddenly demands for me to do something inane for her out of "chivalry", something of which she doesn't need anybody to do, then I would feel that "chivalry" in this case is stupid. However, I don't mind being polite to other people - men or women - and that kind of thing; I just mind if women try to use "chivalry" to make me do things I don't need to do. Being nice to others is fine and admirable; having to serve others just because of gender, that's much more debatable.

 

[civ_king]

They want to screw other people.

Marriages is about more than sex

 

[Perfection]

Yeah, so?

 

[civ_king]

Yeah, so?

They should stop being weak and grow a spine, in marriage there is often a decline in the reality stage, but eventually you get out of that. My Grandparents experienced that, but they worked through it and last year celebrated their 60th anniversary. My other set of Grandparents experienced that and are celebrating their 50th anniversary this year.

 

[Perfection]

Let's say they both screwed 'em too and want to continue screwing them. Who is at fault then? Who gets the kids?

(BTW, do you believe that above couple should not only not get a divorce, or that they should not be able to get a divorce?)

 

[civ_king]

Let's say they both screwed 'em too and want to continue screwing them. Who is at fault then? Who gets the kids?

They both need counseling.

 

[Perfection]

So you'd deny them the legal recourse of a divorce?

 

[civ_king]

So you'd deny them the legal recourse of a divorce?

When people consider divorce it means they need love and support.

 

[Perfection]

That doesn't answer my question.

 

[NovaKart]

Civking, if you're talking about people who live by traditional Catholic theology then you might have a point but we're not.

 

[civ_king]

Civking, if you're talking about people who live by traditional Catholic theology then you might have a point but we're not.

Loving and supporting others is only a traditional Catholic value?

And no I wouldn't Perfection, because divorce is not help thus it can't be a recourse.

 

[Perfection]

Well then because your worldview is so radically different from mine, and you're not willing to entertain notions such as no-fault divorce as examples it would be difficult for me to come up with concrete examples of viewing differences sexism that we could agree on. I'll just point to my violinist example as a prototype and note that I think that biases like that do happen and do have important ramifications.

 

[NovaKart]

No, taking advice about marriage from virgins is.

 

[civ_king]

Well then because your worldview is so radically different from mine, and you're not willing to entertain notions such as no-fault divorce as examples it would be difficult for me to come up with concrete examples of viewing differences sexism that we could agree on. I'll just point to my violinist example as a prototype and note that I think that biases like that do happen and do have important ramifications.

Wait, believing everyone should be loved and supported is a radically different world view?

I am committed to building a more just, verdant, and peaceful world, are you?

No, taking advice about marriage from virgins is.

This would make sense if it were true, but it isn't.