Misandrism

I've got two sons, how do I raise them to compete in this?

Easy: They're individuals, and the percentages aren't zero.

If I'm interpreting the chart correctly it seems like there's a huge gap in men and women going to university in Finland. In America now there are more women than men in university but it's just a small gap I think, practically equal. Why do you think it's such a huge gap in Finland?

Those are quantities by age, not necessarily percentages. One possible contribution may be that constription delays men from entering higher education, and in some cases discourages them entirely? Those men would presumably be finding other forms of work instead of attending university.
 
What are you talking about?

That study looks like the sort where people are put on the spot to give the answer expected, and then remarkably perform that way. It is not socially acceptable to judge women on anything but merits for a job, so anyone that does looks like a chauvinist pig immediately. To compensate, everyone will answer the opposite. How else do you explain the discrepancy between judging male appearance, from female? If hotness were really a liability, you would expect the judgemental attitude for both genders.
 
If that's the case then conscription is a significant handicap for men that effects them their whole life and a remedy should be found for that.
 
I'd say more women enter college than men, but they make less money than I do (I am not college educated). It's not difficult for a man to find a good paying job without college, for women it is.

But I stress this is not due to inequality, but due to the fact women don't want to work men's jobs like plumbing, electrician, construction, or even computer technicians and related fields. Working as a cashier in a supermarket or fast food restaurant will not pay you the same as a union electrician. If women want to make as much as men, they have to stop taking the easy jobs and learn a trade skill or go to college and get into management.

I'm not sure exactly why men drop out of school and don't go into college anymore. It seems men are becoming dumber. And I wonder if the media has an influence on this. Yes, I know people say you can't be influenced by the media. If this were the case, then why are there TV advertisements? They are there because they work. So when men are told they are dumb, emotionally clueless by both tv shows and commercial advertisements, it starts to go get ingrained in their heads that maybe they aren't as smart as women, and they are emotionally inept.

If that's the case then conscription is a significant handicap for men that effects them their whole life and a remedy should be found for that.
conscription is immoral and should be outlawed. How is this any different than slavery?
 
Posting in bold & caps isn't going to get you laid.

Actually, being a wimp doesn't get you laid either. :)

Question: Does demanding that society respect the fact that men have feelings mean/reflect that you are a high status, alpha, dominating man who doesn't take crap from anybody or does it mean that you are a wimp who can't handle pressure and "cares" too much about what other people think of him?

I'm not sure exactly why men drop out of school and don't go into college anymore. It seems men are becoming dumber.

This reminds me of a letter-to-the-editor that I read in a news paper, written by some girls who had just recently graduated Primary Education and had started High School. Among the graduates of their Primary Education class there had been a huge difference in grades between the sexes: the guys were scraping along with mostly Gs (~Cs) and VGs(~Bs), whereas the girls in that class graduated with mostly VGs and MVGs (~As).

The girls argued that it was the teachers' faults, saying that they made it seem more okay for guys to settle with low grades while pressuring the girls a little more.
 
Where'd Traitorfish go? This seems like his kind of thread.

I've PMed him about it but he's away from the internet for a while.

I wonder how different the responses would be if there were more girls on the board. I've seen misandrism totally dismissed by one of the girls here, but I wonder is it something most girls are conscious of.

One of my sisters, who would be a very conscious feminist, told me a few years ago that until she had a son get to age 8, she had no idea how hard it could be being male. She had always assumed men had more-or-less everything easy and their own way.
 
On the issue about gender equality or lack thereof in colleges, one observation a (female) professor of mine made was that even if there are more women than men in colleges in America, it is not equal in all colleges, and, more importantly, it's not equal in all fields necessary. For instance, there proportionally aren't a lot of women in the hard sciences. It's also particularly striking with the humanities, when it comes to Asians - there's a crapload more Asian females in the humanities than there are males.
 
Also I'd like to point out that having two working parents is worse than one working parent
Nuh uh, cuz you get mroe stuff.
I would have rather gotten less stuff & not come home to an empty house. That & I usually got less stuff than even my significantly poorer peers anyway.
 
Men in Norway are actually being discriminated against in certain ways. All in the name of "equality" of course.

I'll leave out military service for now, just noting that from this year on it is still compulsory for men, but now the registration is actually compulsory for women too! It's still voluntary whether or not a woman wants to serve though.

But the most notable place I've noticed discrimination is in higher education in Norway. Our politicians do no like what cyb noted about what people choose to study:
On the issue about gender equality or lack thereof in colleges, one observation a (female) professor of mine made was that even if there are more women than men in colleges in America, it is not equal in all colleges, and, more importantly, it's not equal in all fields necessary. For instance, there proportionally aren't a lot of women in the hard sciences. It's also particularly striking with the humanities, when it comes to Asians - there's a crapload more Asian females in the humanities than there are males.
Can't speak much about the amount of "Asian" students in humanities - I've never heard anything indicating that "Asian females" are especially likely to study those fields compared to other females.

However, it is very true that the hard sciences are dominated by men, and that in industrialised countries, the humanities are dominated by women. It seems to be that as society gets rich enough to allow people to study to follow their interests, women overwhelmingly chooses "soft" fields, the humanities, media and fields where they can "work with people", and while many men may choose some of those fields as well, the students left at the hard sciences are mostly male.

In developing countries where education for women is as common as it is in industrialised countries, we see that far more women are interested to study the hard sciences. They've grown up in societies that are still not flooded with luxury and leisure, and have internalised their desires to help make their societies better, as mathematicians, doctors, engineers and scientists.

But as I said, this isn't good enough for the Norwegian politicians, so they've decided to do something about it.

In Norway, higher education works in the way that you get a score based on your average grades from high school. This score - and only this score - is then used to rank people applying to universities to see who gets in. Simple enough: The best students in high school has the top choices of where and what to study.

Except that there are ways to improve your score:
- Every year after graduating high school, one point is added, until one is 25 years old.
- Military service gives to bonus points. As does the alternative civil service.
- Depending on where and what you apply for, your sex will decide if you get extra points.

Got that last one? In practice, it means that if you are a man, you will get bonus points when applying to one of the two veterinarian education available in Norway.

If you are a woman, you get bonus points for most engineering educations available, and for many other studies where politicians have decided that there are too few women. In addition, there are special funds and programs set up to lure more women to study hard sciences.

At my university this meant that the girls could use all the facilities everyone had access to, but that they also had their own computer labs (boys not allowed), with nifty extra stuff like fridges, microwave ovens and coffee makers included. In high school girls considering applying there were given plane tickets to fly there and got a free tour of the facilities and introductions to the studies. At the CS department they had their own organisation that got a few millions every year to arrange social events or educational events for girls only. This had its most obvious effect when three guys from my class was thrown out of an extra lecture on Discreet Mathematics just before finals, because the lecture was only for girls...

In contrast to the US in Germany usually photos are required when sending in an application. And I recently heard of a study according to which attractiveness helps men and harms women with their chance to get invited.
A study that confirms people are liars? I didn't think you needed science for that.
What are you talking about?
That study looks like the sort where people are put on the spot to give the answer expected, and then remarkably perform that way. It is not socially acceptable to judge women on anything but merits for a job, so anyone that does looks like a chauvinist pig immediately. To compensate, everyone will answer the opposite. How else do you explain the discrepancy between judging male appearance, from female? If hotness were really a liability, you would expect the judgemental attitude for both genders.
Actually, I'm gonna take a wild guess that the similar study I read about that was the same one. And the results have nothing to do about lying or otherwise misrepresenting the truth. It really isn't a misandrist or misogynist problem at all.

In fact, it turns out that attractive men and attractive women had a more or less equal chance of getting hired after passing the first application screening - provided that they had the necessary qualifications of course.*

However, attractive men were more likely than attractive women to pass the initial application screening. This effect is not seen if one compares the numbers on less attractive men and women. And really, it doesn't make much sense that people would choose away more attractive job applicants either, does it?

So the real reason? I'll give you a hint: What department usually does the initial application screening, and what kind of people usually dominates said department? ;)

* It can also be noted that attractive people in general are more likely to be hired, receive favours or otherwise get help in life than less attractive people, but that's another topic (and from several other studies). Also, an attractive appearance is statistically correlated to high intelligence, sexy voices, etc., etc. But another topic again.
 
So the real reason? I'll give you a hint: What department usually does the initial application screening, and what kind of people usually dominates said department? ;)

I assume you mean the Human Resources department, which is mainly women. And I assume you mean that those women are more likely to select other women, rather than men.
 
This kind of thing is maddening, why the hell should a lecture allow only females? Or a computer lab? And compulsory military service is still only for men? This is just insane.
 
One possible contribution may be that constription delays men from entering higher education, and in some cases discourages them entirely? Those men would presumably be finding other forms of work instead of attending university.

That probably does something, but I don't think it explains most of this thing: It's not unusual at all to people keep a year off before applying to universities, and boys do worse already in the high school. I'd think that it's the culture that does this, little things that are to small to notice or to enumerate, but which make people what they are.

When I was in the high school, good grades were thought a bad thing for boys. That might explain something. Now that I think about it, it looks like grades 4 to 9 teach boys mostly to be douche bags.
 
That probably does something, but I don't think it explains most of this thing: It's not unusual at all to people keep a year off before applying to universities, and boys do worse already in the high school. I'd think that it's the culture that does this, little things that are to small to notice or to enumerate, but which make people what they are.

When I was in the high school, good grades were thought a bad thing for boys. That might explain something. Now that I think about it, it looks like grades 4 to 9 teach boys mostly to be douche bags.
In the US it is K-12
 
Men in Norway are actually being discriminated against in certain ways. All in the name of "equality" of course.

I'll leave out military service for now, just noting that from this year on it is still compulsory for men, but now the registration is actually compulsory for women too! It's still voluntary whether or not a woman wants to serve though.

But the most notable place I've noticed discrimination is in higher education in Norway. Our politicians do no like what cyb noted about what people choose to study:Can't speak much about the amount of "Asian" students in humanities - I've never heard anything indicating that "Asian females" are especially likely to study those fields compared to other females.

However, it is very true that the hard sciences are dominated by men, and that in industrialised countries, the humanities are dominated by women. It seems to be that as society gets rich enough to allow people to study to follow their interests, women overwhelmingly chooses "soft" fields, the humanities, media and fields where they can "work with people", and while many men may choose some of those fields as well, the students left at the hard sciences are mostly male.

In developing countries where education for women is as common as it is in industrialised countries, we see that far more women are interested to study the hard sciences. They've grown up in societies that are still not flooded with luxury and leisure, and have internalised their desires to help make their societies better, as mathematicians, doctors, engineers and scientists.

But as I said, this isn't good enough for the Norwegian politicians, so they've decided to do something about it.

In Norway, higher education works in the way that you get a score based on your average grades from high school. This score - and only this score - is then used to rank people applying to universities to see who gets in. Simple enough: The best students in high school has the top choices of where and what to study.

Except that there are ways to improve your score:
- Every year after graduating high school, one point is added, until one is 25 years old.
- Military service gives to bonus points. As does the alternative civil service.
- Depending on where and what you apply for, your sex will decide if you get extra points.

Got that last one? In practice, it means that if you are a man, you will get bonus points when applying to one of the two veterinarian education available in Norway.

If you are a woman, you get bonus points for most engineering educations available, and for many other studies where politicians have decided that there are too few women. In addition, there are special funds and programs set up to lure more women to study hard sciences.

At my university this meant that the girls could use all the facilities everyone had access to, but that they also had their own computer labs (boys not allowed), with nifty extra stuff like fridges, microwave ovens and coffee makers included. In high school girls considering applying there were given plane tickets to fly there and got a free tour of the facilities and introductions to the studies. At the CS department they had their own organisation that got a few millions every year to arrange social events or educational events for girls only. This had its most obvious effect when three guys from my class was thrown out of an extra lecture on Discreet Mathematics just before finals, because the lecture was only for girls...
That's absolute insanity. How are people not up in arms over this? Throwing students out of segregated lectures? That's so bizarre.
 
Great topic.
I apologize for bringing up Finland again, but it happens to be relevant.
This is a graph from 2009 of men and women of different age groups with a university degree.

art_2009-09-30_001_001.gif


I've got two sons, how do I raise them to compete in this?

Isn't it technically a violation of the rules to post in other languages without translation?:p
 
Without reading this whole thread (so I apologise if this has been brought up already), but one thing I have never liked is the use of "women and children" in the media, to basically mean "more valuable people". This is by no means a new thing unlike a lot of what else the OP was talking about, but it still does annoy me quite a lot. I've read/heard the term quite a lot in the last week since the start of the operations in Libya. For instance, there was a story about Gadaffi taking groups of civilians and placing them in military facilities to stop allied attacks, but then someone is quoted saying something like "... because they know no-one will fire on women and children". Which implies that if he had only used adult male civilians then it would have been perfectly fine to bomb them.

And I also know that if I'm ever trapped on a sinking ship I will be expected to let women and children get into lifeboats first, because my life is not worth as much as theirs for some reason. Even though I WAS a child once. So what was the point in valuing my life back then if, as soon as I hit 18, I can be treated as cannon fodder anyway?
 
Well, the children do have a longer life ahead of them, and the women are supposed to be protected. The men are supposed to be the ones willing to die.

What would you do? Leave the children there to drown so you could save yourself? How selfish!

I think saying "Yeah, at 17 he's priceless, 18 he's cannon fodder" is stupid and arbitrary, but you get my point.

What I WOULDN'T get is why you'd also be expected to allow the elderly to grab a boat first. No disrespect intended, but they've already had a decently long life!

All of that said, the only thing I fear about dying is the experience, and I'd like to think I'd give myself up anyway. I know where I'm going.
 
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