[Modmodmod] RFC:Europe Extra Civs
- Thread starter Morholt
- Start date
Tigranes
Armenian
- Joined
- Sep 11, 2008
- Messages
- 10,412
Why is everybody talking about Ravenna? I always take it on turn 4 with my initial stacks from Florence and Milan. You trade 4 units for their two -- may sound too much, but Ravenna is size 3 and can progress a Settler far enough to get it done before 772 AD even with plague. Size 1 Milan working Iron can build Settler during the plague. I was not using supper promoted Mercenaries because after Morholt updates ++ with Beta 13 we wont see those promotions and that abundance. but right now you can take Ravenna with 2-3 Mercenaries very early in the game.
For some reason my troops cannot pillage roads inside my borders but they can pillage my own farm. I wonder if domestic roads protected intentionally. Also Naples never contracted plague, but declared independence even with normal stability.
For some reason my troops cannot pillage roads inside my borders but they can pillage my own farm. I wonder if domestic roads protected intentionally. Also Naples never contracted plague, but declared independence even with normal stability.
AbsintheRed
Deity
AFAIK that's vanilla BtS behaviour
Nintz
King of the Britons
@ Buddhafish-
Ravenna got the plague in my game. So did all of my other cities. The only one that didn't was Napoli, and only because it got hit right before I conquered it, giving it immunity.
@ Tigranes-
Well, yes, I realize it was a widespread epidemic. However, the plauge was put into the game, and engineered to focus on Byzantium. France dosen't get it. Rome does due to open borders. Arabia (if spawned during plague) is immune. Bulgaria is right next to Byzantium, so it makes sense for them to get the plague.
I suppose the plauge is realistic, but rather unfair from a gameplay perspective (for the Lombards).
Ravenna got the plague in my game. So did all of my other cities. The only one that didn't was Napoli, and only because it got hit right before I conquered it, giving it immunity.
@ Tigranes-
Well, yes, I realize it was a widespread epidemic. However, the plauge was put into the game, and engineered to focus on Byzantium. France dosen't get it. Rome does due to open borders. Arabia (if spawned during plague) is immune. Bulgaria is right next to Byzantium, so it makes sense for them to get the plague.
I suppose the plauge is realistic, but rather unfair from a gameplay perspective (for the Lombards).
Buddhafish
Abbey Road
When I conquer a city after it has just gotten rid of the plague, it always gets the plague again under my rule. How does that work?
landlubber
Scottish Nationalist
- Joined
- Mar 5, 2010
- Messages
- 1,534
I just wanted to say that I'm really looking forward to seeing this updated to the new version. Update soon! 
Nintz
King of the Britons
Confused I am. I know that if a city gets the plague, it is immune until the next round. However, when I conquered Napoli, the plague dissapeared. I don't know why, I assumed that was always the case. As for re-catching, I have absolutely no clue. Cities shouldn't be re-catching the plague.
Civciv5
Grand Emperor
Maybe you can add the Duchy of Aquitaine,led by Queen Eleanor of Aquitaine?
given that, 1.Morholt have stated that no more civs (at least short-medium term) is to be added, and 2. France hold it by rights of 'Odo the Great's plegde to Charles Martel in 742, and later by the protential capture of the area by the English, by rights of Eleanor divorcing Louis VII and marrying Henry II of england in 1150's
In short ... it was never (at least for a long enough time to be worthwhile) anything but a vassal/dependency for either France or England
In short ... it was never (at least for a long enough time to be worthwhile) anything but a vassal/dependency for either France or England
ius_iurandi
Chieftain
Okay, longtime player, but I haven't posted in a long while. (Not since, I believe, a related request that got the copper on the tile south of Constantinople.)
First things first, I love this modmodmod. It's awesome, and has almost everything I wanted in the original RFCE (which is still amazing). Anyway, to brass tacks. I might be the only person who still loves to play the Byzantines (call me sick, I know) but I happen to be a big fan of the Greeks. I'm a huge fan of the inclusion of Rum, and the massive barb pressure: plus, it's great that I now have a compelling reason not to keep Egypt. At the same time, I've think I might have a solution to what I see as three balance issues in the area.
1.) Turkey doesn't become the juggernaut it should be.
2.) The Holy Land is much more boring than the intricacies of Europe, and the Arabs don't quite become the power I'd like to see anymore.
3.) The actual Byzantine game can be annoying to the point of not fun, if you lose a couple odded barb battles.
I'll address 3.) first, because they all sort of flow from my fix for this. The crux of the problem with the Byzantines right now is, even though Anatolia is less fertile (a change I am highly in favor of) the AI still doesn't lose enough, and making it any harder on the human will render the civ unplayable for anyone who doesn't micromanage the bejesus out of a huge empire. Mind you, I pretty much do, and I even reloaded once or twice out of frustration. To fix this, I think the first step is to strengthen the Byzantines by lowering the production and/or research penalties to 75-90% of what they are now. (After hitting 1080, I'm thinking only 80%-90%, and probably the latter of those. But there should be something, I just couldn't build enough swords/archers, and it took 9/10ths of eternity to research vaunted arches.) That'll give humans a chance to capitalize on the early game position. Additionally, I think it would be worthwhile to put either a crab two tiles south of Smyrna, or a fish two tiles south of the wheat next to Smyrna. The latter would give the human player the opportunity to found a city in the Tralles/Halikarnas region: either resource would strengthen the future Ottomans.
But how to ensure AI failure? One way is to make Rum into a better power. This one is three steps. First, enlarge the Seljuk flip to include Caesarea and central Colonea. Second get rid of the flatland desert in Colonea, replace with plains: throw a cow/pig there, and spawn a barb city there in 850 AD, that the Turkish will get. (RFC:SOI has a name and location, I can fetch it if you want.) Third, make the Rum UU a 7 strength, no-iron-required lancer replacement, as opposed to an HA replacement. Sort of like a proto-Huszar: a 3-move horse archer (keep Turkomen HA name and the 40% withdrawal, maybe add collateral damage? 10% vs. Heavy Cav? No city attack penalty?) If that's too drastic, I'd at least suggest changing their modifiers to make them slightly more productive. The other way to kill the AI (and challenge the human) is to strengthen the barbs in Colonea. They were a huge problem and a challenge when I had to counter a ton of HAs and Axes with a few Archers and Swords. But even with the Byzantines production and research penalties, I simply out-teched them. Since they couldn't kill my promoted units, and I eventually had crossbows, there wasn't much of a challenge. I'd suggest giving them swords and Turkomen HAs/or Lancers @ 750AD, and heralding the arrival of the waves of Turks with even greater barb pressure at 980-90 to 1050-60.
To address 2.), I think Jerusalem should provide some kind of permanent stability or gold boost, in the form of a pre-built Stephansdom-like wonder (Maybe called Temple Mount, after that's renamed: +5 stability?) or a Jewish shrine. To make the Arabs rock again, stick a fish in the northernmost tile of the Gulf of Aqaba (or turn it into a floodplains desert, if that's too much), leave the clams where they are, and pre-build an indie Aqaba one square to the east of the tip of the gulf either at start or by 600AD. (I think the dynamic name is Ramleh, but the spots N or NE of the Gulf are worse - and Aqaba is slightly on the East side on googlemaps, anyway. ) As an aside, I'd also avoid the auto-war on start for the Arabs. I'd like to gift them the Holy Land to save my stability, and since I wasn't given the option, I gifted it to the Lombards instead (tres historical, no?) Either way, with their warmap, if their attitude modifier is low enough, they'll DoW AI Byzantium.
1.) Ah, the Terrible Turks. They are troublesome. To reiterate, I think giving south-western Anatolia a little more off-shore food would help pump them up. But I really think the problem lies in the inability of the AI to effectively use the Turkish power or UU. And then I realized the problem: they should be switched. If the power was "Siege units start with City Attack I & II" and the unit was "Musketman replacement: Janissary: 11str, 1/2 move, 25% City Strength (or 25% City Attack and 2 first strikes)," we'd probably see them better able to both take and keep cities, even if they don't get more starting units (which I would consider).
I've got more thoughts on the Scots, Spanish, Prussians, and general MAF-avoidance measures, but I think this post is long enough. Thanks much for the brilliant addition to CIV IV, and happy modding!
First things first, I love this modmodmod. It's awesome, and has almost everything I wanted in the original RFCE (which is still amazing). Anyway, to brass tacks. I might be the only person who still loves to play the Byzantines (call me sick, I know) but I happen to be a big fan of the Greeks. I'm a huge fan of the inclusion of Rum, and the massive barb pressure: plus, it's great that I now have a compelling reason not to keep Egypt. At the same time, I've think I might have a solution to what I see as three balance issues in the area.
1.) Turkey doesn't become the juggernaut it should be.
2.) The Holy Land is much more boring than the intricacies of Europe, and the Arabs don't quite become the power I'd like to see anymore.
3.) The actual Byzantine game can be annoying to the point of not fun, if you lose a couple odded barb battles.
I'll address 3.) first, because they all sort of flow from my fix for this. The crux of the problem with the Byzantines right now is, even though Anatolia is less fertile (a change I am highly in favor of) the AI still doesn't lose enough, and making it any harder on the human will render the civ unplayable for anyone who doesn't micromanage the bejesus out of a huge empire. Mind you, I pretty much do, and I even reloaded once or twice out of frustration. To fix this, I think the first step is to strengthen the Byzantines by lowering the production and/or research penalties to 75-90% of what they are now. (After hitting 1080, I'm thinking only 80%-90%, and probably the latter of those. But there should be something, I just couldn't build enough swords/archers, and it took 9/10ths of eternity to research vaunted arches.) That'll give humans a chance to capitalize on the early game position. Additionally, I think it would be worthwhile to put either a crab two tiles south of Smyrna, or a fish two tiles south of the wheat next to Smyrna. The latter would give the human player the opportunity to found a city in the Tralles/Halikarnas region: either resource would strengthen the future Ottomans.
But how to ensure AI failure? One way is to make Rum into a better power. This one is three steps. First, enlarge the Seljuk flip to include Caesarea and central Colonea. Second get rid of the flatland desert in Colonea, replace with plains: throw a cow/pig there, and spawn a barb city there in 850 AD, that the Turkish will get. (RFC:SOI has a name and location, I can fetch it if you want.) Third, make the Rum UU a 7 strength, no-iron-required lancer replacement, as opposed to an HA replacement. Sort of like a proto-Huszar: a 3-move horse archer (keep Turkomen HA name and the 40% withdrawal, maybe add collateral damage? 10% vs. Heavy Cav? No city attack penalty?) If that's too drastic, I'd at least suggest changing their modifiers to make them slightly more productive. The other way to kill the AI (and challenge the human) is to strengthen the barbs in Colonea. They were a huge problem and a challenge when I had to counter a ton of HAs and Axes with a few Archers and Swords. But even with the Byzantines production and research penalties, I simply out-teched them. Since they couldn't kill my promoted units, and I eventually had crossbows, there wasn't much of a challenge. I'd suggest giving them swords and Turkomen HAs/or Lancers @ 750AD, and heralding the arrival of the waves of Turks with even greater barb pressure at 980-90 to 1050-60.
To address 2.), I think Jerusalem should provide some kind of permanent stability or gold boost, in the form of a pre-built Stephansdom-like wonder (Maybe called Temple Mount, after that's renamed: +5 stability?) or a Jewish shrine. To make the Arabs rock again, stick a fish in the northernmost tile of the Gulf of Aqaba (or turn it into a floodplains desert, if that's too much), leave the clams where they are, and pre-build an indie Aqaba one square to the east of the tip of the gulf either at start or by 600AD. (I think the dynamic name is Ramleh, but the spots N or NE of the Gulf are worse - and Aqaba is slightly on the East side on googlemaps, anyway. ) As an aside, I'd also avoid the auto-war on start for the Arabs. I'd like to gift them the Holy Land to save my stability, and since I wasn't given the option, I gifted it to the Lombards instead (tres historical, no?) Either way, with their warmap, if their attitude modifier is low enough, they'll DoW AI Byzantium.
1.) Ah, the Terrible Turks. They are troublesome. To reiterate, I think giving south-western Anatolia a little more off-shore food would help pump them up. But I really think the problem lies in the inability of the AI to effectively use the Turkish power or UU. And then I realized the problem: they should be switched. If the power was "Siege units start with City Attack I & II" and the unit was "Musketman replacement: Janissary: 11str, 1/2 move, 25% City Strength (or 25% City Attack and 2 first strikes)," we'd probably see them better able to both take and keep cities, even if they don't get more starting units (which I would consider).
I've got more thoughts on the Scots, Spanish, Prussians, and general MAF-avoidance measures, but I think this post is long enough. Thanks much for the brilliant addition to CIV IV, and happy modding!
AbsintheRed
Deity
This is a great feedback, I'm sure Morholt will appreciate it
But AFAIK he will update RFCE++ to the next version (RFCE Beta 13) soon, where most of these balancing things are already changed a lot. Especially the Turks
Also, I added Temple Mount as the Jewish Shrine and 3Miro changed the way Janissaries work. Countless other smaller changes also affect those 3 points you brought up...
You should definitely try your game again after RFCE++ is based on the latest version
ius_iurandi
Chieftain
That's fantastic! I'd still encourage the resource additions, Rum UU change, and adding of Aqaba regardless. Either way, I hope some more feedback isn't unwarranted at this time.
1.) Scotland is awesome. But I think Scotland could be more awesome, and I get my idea from the third UHV goal. If the Scots are the representation of the Celts in this mod, I'd like to see them help fill the early-power void in Western Europe. Use them to represent the Picts: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_the_Picts
Start Scotland in 500 or 600AD, as opposed to 960. I'd love a 500AD start with naught but a settler and an archer, but that's a personal preference. Change the 3rd UHV to include Wales, Wessex (or cut it in half and call the western part Cornwall), and Galicia (specifically, La Coruna): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Britonia & http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celts#Iberia. Change the completion date to 900. (Sort of like the first French UHV). Then, if Cornwall could be cut out of the English flip, the Conquest of Britain might be more challenging for them. I'd also love to see the first UHV be 6 Castles or 12 Forts, so we had a chance to avoid fort-spam. Dublin might have to be added to the Scottish flip for them to have a chance (thought I'm against that), which isn't nearly as ridiculous as it sounds, if we take Dal Riata to represent the Gaels of the post-Roman period. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaels#Expansion
Anyway, that's my Celtic (Irish) heritage talking.
2.) The extra civs are amazing, but my computer is not. So when the English, Arabs, Aragonese, Lombards, Moroccans, Tunisians, and Egyptians (Plus maybe the Prussians and all of the SE HRE civs) spam cities in terrible locations, especially across North Arica, it struggles to keep up. I think the game would be improved, both in terms of hardware demands and aesthetics if the AI in general (or at least the ones mentioned) was gently pushed to focus less on settling and more on warring. Three cities in Egypt is fine. Three cities in the two Provinces west of Egypt, Benghazi built on top of the wheat that feeds Cyrene (which could probably be removed from the Mod, at this point) and Colchester growing larger than London is rather ridiculous. I don't this really requires a major change - I know we all hate terrible AI city placement, and with all these civs, all settling at the base rate, it's simply compounded.
3.) Prussia is an addition I've literally wanted to see since day 1. Combining them with the Teutonic Order was simply brilliant. But the resources in the area make good city placement a phenomenal headache. If we want the Konisberg to Riga area to include three cities, help us out a little more. You'd be my hero if we could move either the horse or amber by Konisberg 1 space East (especially the horse). If the crab by Riga managed to shift 1 square SW, I wouldn't feel nearly as silly founding S of the timber. And if the amber three squares north of Riga could migrate 1 square further north, Kolyvan (the Novgordian name; it's usually Danish) wouldn't be so hopelessly bereft of anything resembling production.
Also, on a related note, could you please remove the Ladoga indie and give Novgorod another settler? As either Rurik or Ivan IV, I'd really like to settle St. Pete (call me a fan of Peter the Great) and while I can at least raze it as the Russians, I'm stuck with it as Novgorod.
Morholt
Prince
Just letting you know I'm still alive! I was in Poland last week and the next week I have a series of exams so no promises as to release date, though. AbsintheRed is correct in that attempting to fix balance in this version is more or less pointless as it will change greatly in the Beta 13 version anyways, for example the Turks are way stronger. I'm mainly interested in HRE/Bohemia/Lombardy feedback at the moment.
About the performance, sorry but there's not a whole lot to do about it. From my understanding (Someone care to comment?) number of civs has a larger impact on loading time than number of cities. As for the civs, I'm experimenting with a mechanism that will make "obsolete" civs more likely to collapse after their historical collapse dates. As for the cities, that is more tricky. Perhaps Mongols should raze cities they capture? Perhaps "obsolete" cities should simply be nuked from the map once they become less relevant (this currently happens with Ravenna and Uppsala)?
About the performance, sorry but there's not a whole lot to do about it. From my understanding (Someone care to comment?) number of civs has a larger impact on loading time than number of cities. As for the civs, I'm experimenting with a mechanism that will make "obsolete" civs more likely to collapse after their historical collapse dates. As for the cities, that is more tricky. Perhaps Mongols should raze cities they capture? Perhaps "obsolete" cities should simply be nuked from the map once they become less relevant (this currently happens with Ravenna and Uppsala)?
Hear ye, Hear ye,
Recent developments in the a new mod have allowed what is claimed to be a 25% or faster speed increase to the game.
The mod is called K-Mod Far beyond the Sword and here is the link:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=407049
Nintz
King of the Britons
I would agree, although I would certainly say that cities do influence loading time.
In basic RFC, for instance, loading times skyrocket once you reach not a certain civ count, but a overall density of both civs and cities.
Tigranes
Armenian
- Joined
- Sep 11, 2008
- Messages
- 10,412
What are the guarantees that K-Mod, designed for vanila BTS will smoothly fit with so heavily modded RFCE++? You need to teach AI so many new things. As for the speed I am pretty sure if we disable AI historical victories and checking for hem code will run faster...
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