[Modmodmod] RFC:Europe Extra Civs
- Thread starter Morholt
- Start date
Morholt
Prince
They will basically be Lombard Kingdom -> Lombard League -> Duchy of Milan, with one UHV for each.
AbsintheRed
Deity
Indeed, the HRE system is great
But we have too few civs, Lombardy and Bohemia is needed for that IMO
AbsintheRed
Deity
With the many civs you added I think it's better to hide dead/inactive civs
AbsintheRed
Deity
Actually I just moved the main mongol spawn point north.
It was strange that the Keshik stacks appeared that close to Jerusalem
It is still not forbidden of course that they get as far as Palestine
Morholt
Prince
Sure, go ahead. Currently I've got this:
Lombardy
UHV:
-Recreate the Lombard Kingdom at its greatest extent.
-Lombard League based, kill some number of the Emperor's troops?
-Duchy of Milan based, commerce related?
UP: Trade routes also provide some food.
UU: Undecided. Would have been condottieri but I think those are part of the new mercenary system. Carroccio is a possibility (siege weapon with Medic?) but there are no great graphics.
UB: Undecided. Someone suggested Commune as a Castle replacement but I think there are too many Castle UB's already.
Bohemia
UHV:
-Become Emperor.
-Recreate Ottokar II's empire.
-Something related to the Hussite wars. Currently the Hussites are represented by one of your cities flipping to an independent civ with a huge stack of troops. Defeat them before a certain year?
UP: Undecided. Perhaps Wagon Forts (extra fortify bonuses outside cities) if the Wagons cannot be the UU?
UU: Would have been War Wagons but there is no suitable graphics. Howitzers?
UB: Undecided.
Also the first German UHV has to be changed, and Austria should probably have some HRE related UHV as well (be elected Emperor x times?)
Bonci
King
i think that a Carroccio UU would be awesome...but if it cannot be done maybe a very early lombard UU could be the Ariman.
However I think that Condottieri's should be somehow represented because the history of the duchy of milan is very tied to them (for example Francesco Sforza in origin was a condottiere).
for the UB maybe there could be something related to the italian patronage and idea of magnificence (like some building that increases the GP output...
EDIT: i was thinking that the UA could also be something related to the new HRE system? i don't know how it is going to work but maybe the ability could be to retain a higer level of autonomy?
However I think that Condottieri's should be somehow represented because the history of the duchy of milan is very tied to them (for example Francesco Sforza in origin was a condottiere).
for the UB maybe there could be something related to the italian patronage and idea of magnificence (like some building that increases the GP output...
EDIT: i was thinking that the UA could also be something related to the new HRE system? i don't know how it is going to work but maybe the ability could be to retain a higer level of autonomy?
The first two for Lombardy are great (with the addition of that you succeed if the emperor collapse). Ideally, the goal for the second one should be set before 1311 when the Visconti dynasty acquired their title from the emperor's and became their allies.
If the first two are goals that they succeeded in doing, then according to the sacred commandments the third should be wanted-to-but-failed.
Some ideas:
The Visconti dynasty worked hard to be accepted by other European nations. A system similar to the auld alliance, but for several nations, including France, England, Germany and others.
The Sforzas established the Peace of Lodi as an alliance of Italian states. While in reality it consisted of Milan, Florence, Venice, Naples and the Papal states, it could be adopted to be between Genoa, Venice and Milan. A requirement could be "ensure that Milan, Genoa and Venice are all among the top 10 in score" (or suitable number), requiring the player to campaign also on their behalf and give them cities.
Lodovico & Beatrice established Milan as one of the cultural capitals. I don't have the list of wonders here, but are there cultural wonders that could be suitable to represent their cultural achievements?
Banking goals are already taken by Genoa.
How about a passive goal? "Do not build any military units between year x and y", which will force the player to rely on condottieres, swiss guards and so on. Especially together with the military goal it will provide a unique challenge.
UU: If the last goal is used, then having a UU in the later period is problematic. How about a UU that will help their early conquest? An improved axeman, Langobardi, with an extra strength?
UB: I think it would be nice to have an improved university, to represent the fact that (I think?) the Italian states were the first to establish universities. The Alma Mater Studiorium was (according to Wikipedia) established 1088, so perhaps rename universities Alma Mater (which people should recognize) and provide extra gold income to represent commerce brought in by the students?
If the first two are goals that they succeeded in doing, then according to the sacred commandments the third should be wanted-to-but-failed.
Some ideas:
The Visconti dynasty worked hard to be accepted by other European nations. A system similar to the auld alliance, but for several nations, including France, England, Germany and others.
The Sforzas established the Peace of Lodi as an alliance of Italian states. While in reality it consisted of Milan, Florence, Venice, Naples and the Papal states, it could be adopted to be between Genoa, Venice and Milan. A requirement could be "ensure that Milan, Genoa and Venice are all among the top 10 in score" (or suitable number), requiring the player to campaign also on their behalf and give them cities.
Lodovico & Beatrice established Milan as one of the cultural capitals. I don't have the list of wonders here, but are there cultural wonders that could be suitable to represent their cultural achievements?
Banking goals are already taken by Genoa.
How about a passive goal? "Do not build any military units between year x and y", which will force the player to rely on condottieres, swiss guards and so on. Especially together with the military goal it will provide a unique challenge.
UU: If the last goal is used, then having a UU in the later period is problematic. How about a UU that will help their early conquest? An improved axeman, Langobardi, with an extra strength?
UB: I think it would be nice to have an improved university, to represent the fact that (I think?) the Italian states were the first to establish universities. The Alma Mater Studiorium was (according to Wikipedia) established 1088, so perhaps rename universities Alma Mater (which people should recognize) and provide extra gold income to represent commerce brought in by the students?
Bonci
King
very good idea!
this is a good idea too...the primacy is contended between Bologna and Paris but historians usually agree that the first university was built in Bologna.
urban
Chieftain
Re: Hussite Wars:
So I feel a little torn on this. While the king of Bohemia was anti-hussite, many, if not a majority of Czechs (I believe) were pro-hussite. So yes, the UHV could be putting down the hussites, but I'd rather see it be something along the lines of being the hussites, and trying to cause a revolution. Along the same lines, it is strange to me for the UU and UP to be hussite, but the UHV to be putting down the hussites.
Perhaps it should be a free pass to protestantism, and a forced change for the bohemians when they are NPC, and then a crusade by the rest of the HRE that you have to put down? This would require all sorts of balancing, but would fulfull the thought that one of the UHVs should be something that the civ wanted to, but did not, achieve.
So I feel a little torn on this. While the king of Bohemia was anti-hussite, many, if not a majority of Czechs (I believe) were pro-hussite. So yes, the UHV could be putting down the hussites, but I'd rather see it be something along the lines of being the hussites, and trying to cause a revolution. Along the same lines, it is strange to me for the UU and UP to be hussite, but the UHV to be putting down the hussites.
Perhaps it should be a free pass to protestantism, and a forced change for the bohemians when they are NPC, and then a crusade by the rest of the HRE that you have to put down? This would require all sorts of balancing, but would fulfull the thought that one of the UHVs should be something that the civ wanted to, but did not, achieve.
Morholt
Prince
Initially the Hussite Wars were Hussites versus the King, but by the end it was Hussites versus Hussites. So I see no real problem with having Hussite units on both sides. The player represents the Utraquists (moderate Hussites) and the bad guys the Taborites (radical Hussites).
Having the Hussites be Protestant is problematic since it is 100 years before Protestantism is founded in-game. Perhaps the Hussites remove Catholicism from cities they capture instead?
Another possibility for the third, "wanted but didn't" UHV, would be for the Bohemian Revolt to succeed, perhaps by forcing Protestantism on every member of the HRE by 1621? Or being stronger than any member of the HRE at that date? This would also make the length of the game more in line with the other civs, 1085-1434 is unusually short.
Having the Hussites be Protestant is problematic since it is 100 years before Protestantism is founded in-game. Perhaps the Hussites remove Catholicism from cities they capture instead?
Another possibility for the third, "wanted but didn't" UHV, would be for the Bohemian Revolt to succeed, perhaps by forcing Protestantism on every member of the HRE by 1621? Or being stronger than any member of the HRE at that date? This would also make the length of the game more in line with the other civs, 1085-1434 is unusually short.
Tigranes
Armenian
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Czech basically wanted to be the first reformed nation and free from German influence. How about Be the first to found Protestantism and something like Japan in vanila RFC -- no/little foreight culture at the same time. This way not only teching to Printing Press becomes priority but also keeping high Czech culture at the same time.
Also why you never considered the Wagon from Fraxis Charlemagne scenario? True, it cannot shoot, but it looks like Wagon at least. And perhaps its possible to convert Civ3 graphic to Civ 4? There was a Hussite wagon in Civ3.
The idea about Lombard UU is an excellent one, by the way
! How did you learn about it? Sounds like a famous story, but I never read about it...
merijn_v1
Black Belt
IIRC, there is a Wagon Fort unit in Realsim Invictus for Bohemia.
Tigranes
Armenian
- Joined
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I must admit that your union-multistep-3-options-each mechanics is the most complex process I have ever been offered as a ruler of civilization
The bribery option in Rhye's Congresses pale in comparison 
Unions either happen or not, how realistic is it to loose a city or two when Ferdinand marries Isabela just because you did not want to spend your espionage points, for example? In AI-AI unions game could check 5 or 6 important parameters to decide who is getting an upper hand in union or if the union can be enacted in a first place. In Human-AI unions Human player's civ just needs to meet certain criteria to enact union -- otherwise interface tells -- Sorry, Isabella, no union with Aragon is possible -- you are too poor and unstable for Ferdinand of Aragon to marry you 
Now, it is known that lots of lands in Middle Ages have been changing hands not only because of wars but because of "love" -- political marriages. Your current option-based union system could be an ideal way to implement that part of the history of Europe. Lets say you are playing as France and the Duchess of one of your Provinces, say Eleanor of Aquitaine, marries to Henry of England. Human player goes throgh the same options you have for the entire civ unions -- but now only 1 province is at stake. If you "win" marrige negotions you can peacefuly "save" the province or similarly aquire a province by marring the Countess of Picardy, for example.
In this example the complexity you are reffering to would be justified, but with unions, IMO, you could really make it more simple -- AI-AI always a union with the twist of different civ getting an upper hand each time, and for the Human-AI simply -- union yes/union no
.Morholt
Prince
Czech basically wanted to be the first reformed nation and free from German influence. How about Be the first to found Protestantism and something like Japan in vanila RFC -- no/little foreight culture at the same time. This way not only teching to Printing Press becomes priority but also keeping high Czech culture at the same time.
Also why you never considered the Wagon from Fraxis Charlemagne scenario? True, it cannot shoot, but it looks like Wagon at least. And perhaps its possible to convert Civ3 graphic to Civ 4? There was a Hussite wagon in Civ3.
The idea about Lombard UU is an excellent one, by the way
No foreign culture is potentially interesting. It might lead to a thirty years' war type situation, with Bohemia against the rest of the HRE.
The Charlemagne Wagon looks a bit too "civilian" to be a Hussite wagon, but it could
possibly be a Carroccio. No way of converting Civ3 graphics to Civ4 unfortunately.
Thanks for the tip, will check it out. You don't happen to know who made it by any chance?
The current system actually supports unions of one or a few provinces only. There is one such between Prussia and Brandenburg. Aquitaine(-Picardy) is actually not a bad idea, didn't think of that one.
Morholt
Prince
I keep being optimistic with how much time I will be able to dedicate to this. It's shaping up though. I will not be incorporating the recent additions to main RFCE as that would delay the release even more. I plan to follow up quickish with a version that does though.
Bonus: the War Wagons of Tripoli!
Bonus: the War Wagons of Tripoli!
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