Monarchist Cookbook Game II

[futurehermit]

Yeah, I thought I might've finally had a best ball contribution, but then Vale goes and posts a monster save

I think there is one major con to Vale's save though:

Spoiler :

It is so good I am confident we will win smoothly

 

[OTAKUjbski]

@ futurehermit:

Spoiler :

Well, I think it was good we "error checked" the map, but I think we might've done ourselves wrong in the process.

By having Copper in the BFC and a shltton of Forests, it's kinda hard to go wrong. (Please ignore the fact I somehow managed to go wrong anyway. )

Monty to the south is a no-brainer we won't be getting along. And if I'm reading the EP ratios correctly, Monty only knows us and Peter (so I conclude we three are on a continent/island by ourselves) -- meaning even if we share a religion with Monty, he's still going to be at odds with us.

Given all of the above assumptions, I have no doubt we'll walk all over Monty (we'll have little/no choice) and have a gi-freakin-normous continent to expand into relatively unmolested in the BCs. By the time we meet the other civs, we'll have 40% of the world's landmass under our control and a lead large enough to crash memory buffers on supercomputers.

Remember my One of "Those" Starts game a couple months ago? I have a hunch this one's gonna go down too much like that one.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

@ futurehermit:

Spoiler :

Well, I think it was good we "error checked" the map, but I think we might've done ourselves wrong in the process.

By having Copper in the BFC and a shltton of Forests, it's kinda hard to go wrong. (Please ignore the fact I somehow managed to go wrong anyway. )

Monty to the south is a no-brainer we won't be getting along. And if I'm reading the EP ratios correctly, Monty only knows us and Peter (so I conclude we three are on a continent/island by ourselves) -- meaning even if we share a religion with Monty, he's still going to be at odds with us.

Given all of the above assumptions, I have no doubt we'll walk all over Monty (we'll have little/no choice) and have a gi-freakin-normous continent to expand into relatively unmolested in the BCs. By the time we meet the other civs, we'll have 40% of the world's landmass under our control and a lead large enough to crash memory buffers on supercomputers.

Remember my One of "Those" Starts game a couple months ago? I have a hunch this one's gonna go down too much like that one.

Spoiler :

If you like, we could whore out an AP win here by taking monty's religion and keeping him alive while building the AP in a different religion. He's a zealot and will stay in it, making the game potentially winnable at optics. Part of me thinks that'd be a waste on what I agree is a really strong map though!

 

[Bleys]

I think we can drop the spoilers, rolo has played his round, just hasnt posted it, and anyone "new" coming in will see the "avoid the main game thread til you play" before this page, heh.

I agree that we are in for another blow-out from any of the "successfully rushed Peter" saves. Add the Mids with Vale's, and its game over. However, once we do kill Monty, there should be some educational value in how to consolidate a position like this without tanking your economy while running an SE. That is actually not as easy as it looks, SEs are notoriously lean on commerce anyway, with the slider dropping under 30% as a matter of course. Seeing how far we "push the envelope" is a good lesson, IMHO. I find that most people aspiring to Monarch and above difficulty start falling apart just about 100 AD, when they have conquered their continent or a neighbor and just plain cannot "hold on". I know I am like that, I can start games with the best of them (as I bet most Monarch level players can), but getting to Astronomy without tanking, and then trying to conquer other continents . . . tricky for sure.

Also, TMs idea of an AP switcheroo appeals to me, LOL.

 

[r_rolo1]

Seeing vale's save does not give me any kind of incentive in posting mine, if you know what I mean

Spoiler :

I don't know why I'm going to spoiler this, but....

Settled 1 E of the starting spot, to grab the corn ( I agree with vale on this... original starting spot is too food weak )

Spoiler :

Met Peter:

Spoiler :

And got from a goody hut the tech that I was researching ( *slam keyboard* )

Spoiler :

Greek dudes are very industrious:

Spoiler :

Nice one, considering that I was already preparing to use those piggies:

Spoiler :

A nice demerit in diplo

Spoiler :

Third city:

Spoiler :

Too bad that collosus is out of plans ....

Sometimes I pass a entire game without quests and sometimes....

Spoiler :

The second is good considering that I'm gunning to TGL ( maybe Paya or SoZ in the way )

A key wonder:

Spoiler :

And corresponding civic switch:

Spoiler :

Our dear friend Peter beelined IW... a internet cookie to the first that discovers where is the iron in this picture

Spoiler :

Assorted stuff:

Spoiler :

Seeing it from behind, it is clear that I should had rushed Peter. He has no cooper and it would not be too hard to capture his hill capital before he would get IW. OFC that axe rushing with a civ that does not start with the wheel or mining is slower

OK, pro formae done.... When can we start with vale's save ?

 

[Diamondeye]

Okay, I am beggining to lose patience with my Autolog. My report for round 1 will be scarce due to the continuing disregard my log has for me. I need some help with this, it is really getting me down!

Spoiler Round 1: 4000 - 775 BC :

Pericles! Great! Nice traits, nice Uniques. Don't know how well I like starting techs, but Hunting is fine for scouting my vicinity. And it leads to archery and enables popping some huts, one of them, surprisingly, giving archery:

I started out teching straight at AH for resources nearby, going worker first, even though he might get some turns waiting, it'll be worth it with two AH resources.

I quickly scout, starting south, and find some very nice spots! I am sure this will be the way to settle. I am thinking of a peaceful REX, Creative helps a bunch for grabbing those gems:

My scout is injured, but I refuse to let him rest (hes at .1 hp and any animal passing by might kill him. He gets to see this before a wolf eats him a couple of turns later:

Peters territory! I am not that afraid of this AI, he is rather bad, and my CRE culture will deal with his attempts at landgrab rather easily.

Uhm, and looks like a good idea to go worker first. I get a serious event here:

Since Athens is size 1 and my only city, and the event cannot kill off cities, I decide to go galore, and with resounding success. I now have a completely silly amount of (~16 forests, river, and event).

Ooookay. I meet Monty. Not good. He is south. doubly not good:

That city is poor, but blocks gemsites. I can't have that. I quickly build 5 phalanx and wipe the city off the map, to settle my own 2 cities (1E of clam and 2E1N of Corn). I then proceed to Montys territory to wage some war, but his amount of soldiers shock me. I cant take any of his two other cities (Capi is 60%, on hill!), so I just walk around his land while teching for catties. I have 5 cities, two of them being just-settled gemsite ones. I think I can outtech Monty and wipe him from here, but since I played some time over schedule, it'll have to be next round.

 

[Winston Hughes]

After sitting here waiting for someone to point out the elephant in the room, it seems it's up to me...

Vale is not a Monarch player - in fact, my guess is that Immortal would be his 'natural' level. In MC1 he said he was a bit out of practice, but still posted one of the best saves in each round. Now he's had some time to get back into the swing of things (and he's playing on a much more flexible map) he's blown everyone else away, and could end up providing the best save in every round for this game.

Moreover, I tested this map on the assumption that those playing it would be at or around Monarch level, and (with the exception of vale) the results are pretty much as I expected. From any other save, there should still be plenty of challenge here. If you play from vale's save, though, it probably will be too easy (though perhaps not as easy as some of you are suggesting).

I certainly don't mean to criticise vale in any way (quite the opposite), but I think you're going to have to treat his contributions as educational shadows, rather than best ball candidates. While it's great to have such a talented and knowledgable player participating in the thread, it won't do much for the format if his saves are chosen every time, or if the game is all but won by the end of the second round.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

You know, if push comes to shove I'd say over half of the contributors to this could win with a fair bit of consistency on emperor. I say this because I believe several of the players (vale included) to be at least as good if not better than myself, and I've finally gotten to the point where I can win at that level most of the time myself.

One of the problems is that playing ability isn't static. I'm not sure of the exact time frames, but at the start of MC I, I'm not sure if I'd won at emperor yet at all...so people also improve. Perhaps moreso while playing a format like there where you have the opportunity to see every little detail.

Regardless of how good the "best ball" contributors are, the intent of the series - showcasing how to win at monarch - isn't lost IMO. I joined it for fun but if someone learns something from my contributions all the better.

 

[vale]

In MC1 he said he was a bit out of practice, but still posted one of the best saves in each round.

I definitely had some clunkers(round 1 with my natural tendency to look for the rush was pretty silly on that map)and some serious moments like getting too caught up in worrying about unhappiness when it really was unavoidable in some cities.

...could end up providing the best save in every round for this game.

This is really no chance of this. First of all, a large portion of that save is an illusion generated by the insanely good luck with the events+huts:
1. Got Animal Husbandry and The Wheel out of huts. This let me get Bronze Working early, Pottery early, a second city in a good resource site early and rush earlier than usual.
2. Got the health event while building workers at pop 1. It is really hard to beat that luck.
3. More importantly avoided any negative events especially the slave revolt event which would have destroyed that save. Later on in a larger empire with the gold to deal with it it isn't a problem but before the rush on Peter that would have been save-killing.
4. Most importantly, I didn't get hosed by combat results. I lost the three axemen I was expecting in that final assault on Moscow and could have afforded 1-2 more losses but certainly the RNG could have gotten me there.

Second of all, the early years are always easier for me. This round was in that sweet spot of 1-6 cities where it isn't much effort to check them each turn. Later on it definitely gets painful and my rounds get sloppier.

If you play from vale's save, though, it probably will be too easy (though perhaps not as easy as some of you are suggesting).

It might be easier, but I don't think it will be simple at all. Monty isn't just going to fold up like a rag doll. Even if he does that has its own challenges like rexing a probable 3 person continent while isolated and not tanking the economy.

...if the game is all but won by the end of the second round.

I think the game was all but won by the beginning of the game because:
1. The best ball format is like that by its nature. Unless every player has a bad round simultaneously, you will always be progressing well towards a victory. In fact typically, there will be at least 2-3 solid saves each round I would guess while any disasters are factored out.
2. The start position was extremely fortuitous. Three food resources, copper, a close neighbor and a billion forests is about the best you can hope for. This was just about a guarantee that someone was going to be able to kill Peter in the first round.

 

[Bleys]

While I agree that vale is easily a "well above Monarch" player, I also agree that we all are. Most of us (roster players) readily admit we can compete on Emperor, but we prefer the "more carefree and fun" waters of Monarch, where you can play a bit "looser" and not worry about a bad move costing you the game.

I actually moved my settler to that coastal tile as a gamble, knowing SOMEONE else would play a solid round if it failed. I will say this, if there HAD been even one, single seafood tile on that coast, my save would likely be KILLER strong. After all, we already know how powerful the GLH is from the last game, even on a map like this. In fact, since I am 1-chop away from it, it might STILL be worthy of consideration, let Peter build the Mids for us, and turn our warring attention on Monty and his GLH-Prime land.

 

[OTAKUjbski]

RE: using vale's save:

I don't see what the big deal is. We're all good players with the ability to win on Emperor (and possibly even Immortal).

Sure, he got lucky with huts and events, but it looks like we all did to some extent.

The decisiveness by which vale realized and acted upon the strengths of both our leader (early Writing and Library for a quick GS) and of the map (Copper in BFC + strong UU + close neighbour) is exactly what we and our readers want (need) to learn.

-- my 2

 

[Diamondeye]

Glad you got a chance to get the round in hermit, good round too, looks like you also have Peter pretty much smoked.

Sigh, I am depressed by my round, totally blew it moving to that coast. Stupid blue circles, I thought for SURE there was a fish up there!

Just noticed that this might be spoiler material, but it seems we've quit the thought of spoilers for now

RE: using vale's save:

I don't see what the big deal is. We're all good players with the ability to win on Emperor (and possibly even Immortal).

Sure, he got lucky with huts and events, but it looks like we all did to some extent.

The decisiveness by which vale realized and acted upon the strengths of both our leader (early Writing and Library for a quick GS) and of the map (Copper in BFC + strong UU + close neighbour) is exactly what we and our readers want (need) to learn.

-- my 2

Agree. It was masterly done, props to Vale.

I have two points to state:
1)Am I the only one not attempting to kill off Peter immidiately? I mean, he's not like, dangerous, or anything, infact, I think he's one of the lousiest AI leaders in the game (sad for Russia to have two leaders that bad; Peter + Stalin).
2) I need some serious help with my autolog before I break something...

 

[OTAKUjbski]

@ Quotey:

Great save!

re: city placement:

I think Sparta's fine. I made 4 different dotmaps, and a city was exactly where you placed Sparta on 2 of them.

As it relates to Corinth, I'm curious as to what your goals are for that city.

In all 4 of my dotmaps, there was a city placed there, but that was also with consideration to Athens being low food.

By settling Athens in place, my goal was to shed the hills to nearby cities and focus Athens on Cottages (which by my count would total 14 @ pop17).

Spoiler dotmap snippet :

@ Diamondeye: re: AutoLog:

I need some serious help with my autolog before I break something...

Exactly what is your AutoLog doing (not doing)? (PM is fine if you don't want to dredge that out into the game thread.)

 

[Diamondeye]

Spoiler Autolog problems :

Exactly what is your AutoLog doing (not doing)? (PM is fine if you don't want to dredge that out into the game thread.)

Nothing. Which is the entire problem.

I load the Bestball save. Rename myself. Save again.

Exit to main menu.

Open save again.

Ctrl+Alt+O: Logging: Enable Logging: X
I also name the log file, directory line is blank.

OK

start playing.

 

[Winston Hughes]

I'm sorry if I've misread the situation, but vale's save looks insanely strong to me. He's modest enough to cite his luck, and obviously it played some part, but no amount of luck will get you that kind of position by 1000bc, even with a strong starting location.

That said, I blame myself for not picking one of the truly horrible starts I generated, and instead choosing something with room for more variation. I actually considered deleting both the corn and the copper in WB, but thought it better to provide an unedited map.

I wasn't that generous, though, and hopefully there'll still be enough of a challenge to make this game interesting for a while yet, despite the super-charged start vale has given you.

 

[vale]

Incidentally, I went back and cleaned up my summary post and provided some more screenshots and details. I deleted the one on page 2 and consolidated it into a long summary on page 3 with all the saves I had from the round including the 2000BC "end". They are somewhat nice because it makes a little bit of what was going on more transparent. I really like a screenshot from 2000BC that shows what I mean about setting up the 2 pop for infrastructure while just slow building and overflowing into units.

I also had a save from when Sparta was founded because a buddy wanted to come over and play stratomatic baseball while I was in the middle of my round so I had to quit.

 

[OTAKUjbski]

@ all; RE: lost posts:

Word + AutoRecovery = problem solved

@ Bleys:

That's some wicked exploration you've done.

As far as the GLH is concerned, I think for curiosity's sake, I really like your save for its Shadow value.

After Peter and Monty are disposed of (Monty, at least, is a matter of "when" and not "if"), it'd be interesting to see how much better you're able to expand into the continent without tanking the economy.

Similarly, it'd also be very interesting to see what happens after Astronomy!

@ TheMeInTeam:

OMFG new rule: You must use Blue Marble Terrain to participate in this series!

j/k

(no but seriously ... it's no wonder why you play your games so fast ... I'd be in a hurry to stop looking at the stock terrain, too. )

@ Rameau's Nephew:

Great save ... more and more I'm ashamed of how my 1st Round turned out.

Sparta, Lighthouse: Why? Typically in my non-seafood coastal cities I wait until after I'm working all the Grassland [Cottage/Farm] tiles before I build a Lighthouse and work the coastal tiles. I'm not saying it's a bad move, I'm just curious ...

Stupid AI (Texcoco & Teotihuacan): Nothing you could've done about it ... just something to talk about ... why is the AI so dumb? Why does it INSIST on building low food cities and one-off-the-coast cities? I can see that Texcoco is ON Iron since it is a Grassland Hill but has 2 , but it's not like this is MP or something. /sigh

Archers outside Moscow/Novgorod: It's worth mentioning one of the candidates for attacking the weakened Archer is a CR2 Phalanx just 1 XP from making CR3. There's no way you won't be able to take Novgorod in a few turns.

@ siggboy:

I really like the position you're in.

Not only have you managed to REX very nicely, but you've done so with cities from my favourite dotmap.

And to add icing to the cake, my "choke point" is still open, because the Barbarians settled it instead of Monty!!!

Your game is where I'd hoped mine was going.

@ KeeperofSecrets:

Wow ... your tiles are even more hideous than TMIT's. Maybe that's why you guys play better ... I must be spending too much time enjoying the scenery, lol.

And don't kid yourself ... you played very well. (You save is yet another nail in my coffin of shame for this Round. )

I particularly like how you also have the Great Wall. Once Monty's out of the picture, that's going to go a long way towards helping us expand into our newly-isolated continent more easily.

@ futurehermit, r_rolo1, Diamondeye:

I'm tired of looking at saves ... I'll get around to seeing what I can see in yours later ...

... time to go test Barrage some more ...

 

[TheMeInTeam]

I don't feel like modding terrain or anything else ever because I play this on LAN with my friend a lot. Yes, that means I could swap out the files repeatedly for myself or force him to use it also (though getting it to not complain about different versions and throw us out of sync with just Bhruic's was a big problem), but it isn't worth the effort. Crappy terrain doesn't really bother me . I never cared about graphics a whole lot to begin with, as long as they're reasonable I don't even notice .

 

[vale]

I enjoy the blue marble terrain when I play FFH(I think thats what they use) but not enough to put the effort into finding and installing yet another mod.

 

[OTAKUjbski]

@ Diamondeye: RE: AutoLog problems:

Spoiler :

Nothing. Which is the entire problem.

I load the Bestball save. Rename myself. Save again.

Exit to main menu.

Open save again.

Ctrl+Alt+O: Logging: Enable Logging: X
I also name the log file, directory line is blank.

OK

start playing.

Hmm ...

Well, I know you don't have to reload after naming yourself if you change any of the Logging settings. As soon as you change the Path or File name, AutoLog automatically creates (or appends to) the file the next time a loggable event occurs.

AFAIK, leaving the directory line blank is the same as Default, so the file should be in (My Documents)\My Games\Beyond the Sword\AutoLog\.

The file name is literal, so if you only type in "logname", the file will be "logname" with no extension. (Similarly, "logname.txt" results in a file of "logname.txt")

----

Is any file being created or modified?