monkey labor

[The Civs 6]

Here is the news story:

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...ndal-forces-thailand-to-rethink-coconut-trade

I actually think this is an interesting issue here. Basically, Thai coconut growers have monkeys that are trained to collect coconuts. PETA alleges that this constitutes "monkey slavery".

Let me say this about the PETA claim first. Do they realize what the Thai coconut growers are going to do if they have to to cease using monkey labor? They are going to slaughter all of those monkeys. PETA is potentially incentivizing a monkey decimation.

But that is just one of three possibilities. First, PETA continues to pressure large companies not to buy from them, which will make the monkeys useless -> monkey slaughter. Second, PETA stops, and the status quo continues. But the third option is what intrigues me: suppose the coconut growers say "alright, we are going to pay our monkeys." Presumably, they already feed the monkeys so that they can continue doing their work. My question is this - what do wages look like for a monkey? What do you pay a monkey over and above food so that they are no longer slaves but paid workers?

 

[Samson]

That does not seem to be a terribly accurate description of their position:

Chained and Driven Insane

In 2019, PETA Asia investigators visited eight farms where monkeys are forced to pick coconuts—including those for one of Thailand’s major coconut milk producers, Chaokoh—as well as several monkey-training facilities and a coconut-picking competition. At each one, they documented that these sensitive animals were abused and exploited.

Reportedly, many monkeys are illegally abducted from their families and homes when they’re just babies. They’re fitted with rigid metal collars and kept chained or tethered for extended periods.

Denied the freedom to move around, socialize with others, or do anything else that is important to them, these intelligent animals slowly lose their minds. Driven to desperation, they pace and circle endlessly on the barren, trash-strewn patches of dirt where they’re chained.
​

They are also against other forms of exploitation of animals for labour:

A recent PETA Asia investigation in Jordan’s “Lost City” of Petra, for example, documented the entrenched suffering of more than 1,300 horses, donkeys, mules and camels who are forced to carry tourists or pull carriages every day. Handlers routinely whip and beat the animals during grueling treks through the ancient city in the sweltering heat, and there’s no water or shade for them, either.

Horses and donkeys used to transport tourists or their gear to Havasu Falls are routinely starved, beaten, overloaded, whipped, kicked and forced to work while injured.

Every single tourist can make a difference by refusing to force any animal to provide a ride, wherever rides are offered, including horse-drawn carriages in Nassau and New York City, elephant rides in Thailand’s scam “rescue” camps or Santorini’s donkey and mule caravans.​

 

[Birdjaguar]

Here is the news story:

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...ndal-forces-thailand-to-rethink-coconut-trade

I actually think this is an interesting issue here. Basically, Thai coconut growers have monkeys that are trained to collect coconuts. PETA alleges that this constitutes "monkey slavery".

Let me say this about the PETA claim first. Do they realize what the Thai coconut growers are going to do if they have to to cease using monkey labor? They are going to slaughter all of those monkeys. PETA is potentially incentivizing a monkey decimation.

But that is just one of three possibilities. First, PETA continues to pressure large companies not to buy from them, which will make the monkeys useless -> monkey slaughter. Second, PETA stops, and the status quo continues. But the third option is what intrigues me: suppose the coconut growers say "alright, we are going to pay our monkeys." Presumably, they already feed the monkeys so that they can continue doing their work. My question is this - what do wages look like for a monkey? What do you pay a monkey over and above food so that they are no longer slaves but paid workers?

Where in the link does it say that the monkeys would be slaughtered?

 

[The Civs 6]

Where in the link does it say that the monkeys would be slaughtered?

No where, but what do you think they will do if they can't use the monkeys anymore? Continue to feed them?

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

No where, but what do you think they will do if they can't use the monkeys anymore?

Not this.

That does not seem to be a terribly accurate description of their position:

Chained and Driven Insane

In 2019, PETA Asia investigators visited eight farms where monkeys are forced to pick coconuts—including those for one of Thailand’s major coconut milk producers, Chaokoh—as well as several monkey-training facilities and a coconut-picking competition. At each one, they documented that these sensitive animals were abused and exploited.

Reportedly, many monkeys are illegally abducted from their families and homes when they’re just babies. They’re fitted with rigid metal collars and kept chained or tethered for extended periods.

Denied the freedom to move around, socialize with others, or do anything else that is important to them, these intelligent animals slowly lose their minds. Driven to desperation, they pace and circle endlessly on the barren, trash-strewn patches of dirt where they’re chained.​

 

[The Civs 6]

Again, as a practical matter, what do you think the Thai producers are going to do if they can't use the monkey labor? Send the monkeys to the big monkey farm?

 

[Birdjaguar]

Again, as a practical matter, what do you think the Thai producers are going to do if they can't use the monkey labor? Send the monkeys to the big monkey farm?

As a libertarian do you approve of them killing the moneys if they have to stop using them?

 

[Samson]

Again, as a practical matter, what do you think the Thai producers are going to do if they can't use the monkey labor? Send the monkeys to the big monkey farm?

The important thing would be to stop capturing them from the wild.

I am a bit hesitant to make any statements about what was wrong with slavery, but it seems to me the problem was less that the slaves were not paid, but that they were violently taken from their homes and not given a choice about working.

 

[The Civs 6]

As a libertarian do you approve of them killing the moneys if they have to stop using them?

I'd rather not do that. But Thailand isn't a wealthy and developed country (although it is moreso than many Westerners give it credit for), and the producers are probably not wealthy people.

 

[Samson]

I'd rather not do that. But Thailand isn't a wealthy and developed country (although it is moreso than many Westerners give it credit for), and the producers are probably not wealthy people.

Theppadungporn Coconut Co., Ltd. (TCC), the manufacturer and distributor of Chaokoh coconut milk - Market cap 281.47M

 

[The Civs 6]

Theppadungporn Coconut Co., Ltd. (TCC), the manufacturer and distributor of Chaokoh coconut milk - Market cap 281.47M

First, I need not tell you that a market cap of 281.47M is not particularly large.

I don't know if you read the article, but they are just an aggregator - they contract out coconut production to smaller sub-contractors. Those sub-contractors would be the orgs on the hook for taking care of the unemployed monkeys, TCC would presumably have no responsibility as a legal matter.

 

[El_Machinae]

I think that the 'slaughter' is a bit of a Red Herring, if it's a multi-generational problem. This is a something that people also say when I want us to eat less beef.

The problem is that each of these monkeys has a horrible life and then has a horrible death. And, if the practice isn't stopped, each dead monkey is replaced with a new (and 'innocent') monkey. So, the perpetuity of the problem is part of the problem. Now, I know that it's cold to be okay with 'one slaughter' ending the problem, and you can never do this when discussing human analogues, but the 'one slaughter' is going to be better than perpetuity. You're right, PETA will also care about the slaughter. And they're right to, since that evil is a consequence of the previous evils. But, the fact that want to create multi-generational suffering among these animals - and would if they could - is the greater problem.

 

[Birdjaguar]

I'd rather not do that. But Thailand isn't a wealthy and developed country (although it is moreso than many Westerners give it credit for), and the producers are probably not wealthy people.

So you do approve because poor nations need a break. Would you approve it if I had such an operation in Florida or Hawaii where I could grow coconuts? Would you oppose any government regulation that stopped me? And if after I killed all my monkeys, what if I employed the children of illegal immigrants to scamper up those trees so they could help support their families. Would that be OK?

 

[The Civs 6]

So you do approve because poor nations need a break. Would you approve it if I had such an operation in Florida or Hawaii where I could grow coconuts? Would you oppose any government regulation that stopped me? And if after I killed all my monkeys, what if I employed the children of illegal immigrants to scamper up those trees so they could help support their families. Would that be OK?

First, I hope in your ideology you are totally consistent, which means you don't own a sweat-shop produced smartphone.

Anyway, I think they should just keep the monkeys and pay them a living wage.

 

[Samson]

First, I hope in your ideology you are totally consistent, which means you don't own a sweat-shop produced smartphone.

Anyway, I think they should just keep the monkeys and pay them a living wage.

And keep them tied / locked up? Or should they have freedom of contract?

 

[The Civs 6]

And keep them tied / locked up? Or should they have freedom of contract?

They should have freedom of contract.

The problem is the living wage probably exceeds their marginal value.

 

[Birdjaguar]

First, I hope in your ideology you are totally consistent, which means you don't own a sweat-shop produced smartphone.

Anyway, I think they should just keep the monkeys and pay them a living wage.

I am terribly inconsistent. I own an iPhone. I drive an old car. I shop at Amazon and my locals too. I eat little meat. I own stocks. I grow bamboo in the desert. I have owned my own businesses and worked for others. I have strong opinions and can argumentative. I support government enacting laws to prevent cruelty to animals. I would make the coconut folks hire real people to work on their behalf and pay them appropriately.

 

[Birdjaguar]

The problem is the living wage probably exceeds their marginal value.

Is that what the plantation owners said in 1850?

 

[Samson]

They should have freedom of contract.

The problem is the living wage probably exceeds their marginal value.

I would have no problem with them not getting living wage if they can freely choose. If they can entice the moneys to work for them by offering human made food, and the monkeys choose to come and deliver the coconuts to the farmers while being free to leave then that is probably not exploitation, in the same way this is not exploitation. I can see some possible issues, but they are very different from those seen in the video above.

 

[The Civs 6]

Is that what the plantation owners said in 1850?

Have you ever heard of Godwin's law?

I would have no problem with them not getting living wage if they can freely choose. If they can entice the moneys to work for them by offering human made food, and the monkeys choose to come and deliver the coconuts to the farmers while being free to leave then that is probably not exploitation, in the same way this is not exploitation. I can see some possible issues, but they are very different from those seen in the video above.

That would be morally preferable, I don't disagree. I imagine such an arrangement would be very costly though.