Monotheism vs Polytheism

[Kouvb593kdnuewnd]

Assuming that only one religion can be correct is itself a very doubtful assumption.

 

[timtofly]

That's quite clearly your own personal opinion and nothing more.

I would call it an observation. What does an opinion have to do with anything? How have you observed history playing out, or is life just a popularity contest?

 

[Manfred Belheim]

I would call it an observation. What does an opinion have to do with anything? How have you observed history playing out, or is life just a popularity contest?

Nope it's an opinion. You're making very definite claims about the nature of God, but with absolutely nothing to back them up. It means nothing.

 

[Broken_Erika]

It's an absolute fact that God is a Fire-breathing Orangutan who lives in New Jersey. If you are faithful you will spend eternity roller-skating with Lord Fire-Ape in the Afterlife!

 

[timtofly]

Nope it's an opinion. You're making very definite claims about the nature of God, but with absolutely nothing to back them up. It means nothing.

Not making any claims other than pointing out how the Greeks and other ancients claimed that God was. If connecting the dots is a definite claim, then it is not my opinion. Stating that the ancients fabricated everything is an opinion without any basis. I am not even stating their mindset. I am using what they actually wrote. If it goes against your opinion, that is not proof it is my opinion. When they state that everything started out as "one", taking a literal reading would mean "one", without inserting my opinion at all. If they later wrote about myriads of gods, I assume that is why we consider them to be polytheist. That is not my opinion. I was just stating the opinions of other people. Normally when a person writes out their opinion, they state it as their opinion. I doubt that everything that was ever written is always one person's opinion. Else the scientific method is just a bunch of peer reviewed opinions, and basically worthless, if I am following your logic, that everything that is written is just personal opinion. Is it your opinion, that is the case, or can you just pick and choose what is an opinion, and what is not? I am not even sure, if I have enough confidence or information to state I even have an opinion. I just accept claims others have made. But sure, I guess it is your opinion, and you stated it, that all I ever do is state my opinions, if every thought is just an opinion.

 

[Manfred Belheim]

You're retconning all polytheistic religions to be really all about the one true God. Despite what they claim to be. Because, in your opinion, there is only one true God.

 

[Valka D'Ur]

It has not gone from polytheism to monotheism. It has always been one God with the diversity of the the human experience attempting to explain God.

I'm seriously starting to wonder if you're originally from a different universe, the way you get things so obviously backward so often.

Twenty-odd years ago I was taking a college course in Greek and Roman history, and when the instructor was explaining the Greek gods and their influence on Greek culture, one of the students asked him, "Do the modern-day Greeks still believe in all these different gods?"

@Kyriakos could answer that much better than I could, but my understanding (from the Greek friends my dad had here, who emigrated several decades ago) is that many, if not most, Greek people nowadays consider themselves to be Christian.

Polytheism -----> Monotheism

It's that way in many modern cultures, in which their ancestors worshiped many gods/goddesses/spirits, but nowadays they may consider themselves to be of one of the monotheistic religions.

 

[timtofly]

You're retconning all polytheistic religions to be really all about the one true God. Despite what they claim to be. Because, in your opinion, there is only one true God.

I was fairly generic, but how many polytheistic religions are there out there? I was purposely avoiding any specific religions on the basis that humanity on a whole at that time more than likely had no chance to question what was generally accepted, despite the fact there was diversity in human thought. With all the wars that were pretty much documented, one can hardly say, people were that much isolated to the point we have stark contrast today.

The reason we see things differently is because we have come full circle and dropped the diversity. Through the scientific method we have eliminated all reasons for the world around us needing diety to represent natural occurring phenomenon. We have come to the point where a single beginning happened that no one has an answer to.

I am not making a claim on the one true God. At least not past the point the claim was already made ~3000 years ago. Why did any writing we have mention that: "out of one, came everything"? Why would most all say the same thing? The only difference being their current perception of what that one was. The only difference is that now we have individuals who accept nothing needed to have started the universe, it just happened.

 

[Kyriakos]

I'm seriously starting to wonder if you're originally from a different universe, the way you get things so obviously backward so often.

Twenty-odd years ago I was taking a college course in Greek and Roman history, and when the instructor was explaining the Greek gods and their influence on Greek culture, one of the students asked him, "Do the modern-day Greeks still believe in all these different gods?"

@Kyriakos could answer that much better than I could, but my understanding (from the Greek friends my dad had here, who emigrated several decades ago) is that many, if not most, Greek people nowadays consider themselves to be Christian.

Polytheism -----> Monotheism

It's that way in many modern cultures, in which their ancestors worshiped many gods/goddesses/spirits, but nowadays they may consider themselves to be of one of the monotheistic religions.

It is to be expected, although we can't really know how each believer senses such things... And there is a quasi-polytheistic element even in christianity (via saint-worship), i think. That said, in ancient Greece some were arguing very prominently for just One god (eg a number of philosophers)

 

[Traitorfish]

In all fairness to Tim, he's merely restating a longstanding argument among Christian humanists, that if all humans have an experience of God, however indirect, then that experience will manifest itself in the religious beliefs and practices of any given culture. They pointed to the apparently-independent emergence of monotheistic tendencies around the world- in China, in Persia, in India and in Rome- as evidence that all religion is man clumsily moving towards God, and that Western access to the truths of Christianity is not an indication of innate cultural superiority, but simply of the historical good-fortune to have received the revealed truths of Christ and the prophets.

All he's really doing is dropping the Christian attachment to certain specific revealed truths, and the Unitarians still have him beaten to that punch by a good three hundred years.

 

[Kyriakos]

In all fairness to Tim, he's merely restating a longstanding argument among Christian humanists, that if all humans have an experience of God, however indirect, then that experience will manifest itself in the religious beliefs and practices of any given culture. They pointed to the apparently-independent emergence of monotheistic tendencies around the world- in China, in Persia, in India and in Rome- as evidence that all religion is man clumsily moving towards God, and that Western access to the truths of Christianity is not an indication of innate cultural superiority, but simply of the historical good-fortune to have received the revealed truths of Christ and the prophets.

All he's really doing is dropping the Christian attachment to certain specific revealed truths, and the Unitarians still have him beaten to that punch by a good three hundred years.

Imo the issue has more to do with the notion of oneness, than actual tie to religiousness/religious experience or indistinct faith. And i think that one of the most characteristic (and core) ways of human thinking is to set things as being One or an overgroup. Even in christianity, the supposed one is also three (holy trinity). I definitely don't think that polytheism is a less 'advanced' stage of monotheism, nor that it has to predate it in every culture. That said, we can't know; it is a matter of prehistory.

Culture-wise it likely is far more productive to have many gods with different traits, cause not all people are the same either. It certainly beats having a jewish genocidal god, which i still agree that Nietzsche described very accurately - and he had to; his parents were very involved in the church, and he writes how that influenced him early on.

 

[timtofly]

In all fairness to Tim, he's merely restating a longstanding argument among Christian humanists, that if all humans have an experience of God, however indirect, then that experience will manifest itself in the religious beliefs and practices of any given culture. They pointed to the apparently-independent emergence of monotheistic tendencies around the world- in China, in Persia, in India and in Rome- as evidence that all religion is man clumsily moving towards God, and that Western access to the truths of Christianity is not an indication of innate cultural superiority, but simply of the historical good-fortune to have received the revealed truths of Christ and the prophets.

All he's really doing is dropping the Christian attachment to certain specific revealed truths, and the Unitarians still have him beaten to that punch by a good three hundred years.

I am not sure why any one has to be held to some established religious thought process at all, and I have stated my opinions quite a lot over the threads. I realize that pinning one's thoughts to a certain view is fairly indefensible. The writings I am alluding to predate the Jewish religious thought processes. I clearly do not think humans used religion to change religion. Sure religion is human ideology, and humans are constantly changing their thought processes. That is a generational division, not necessarily a religious undertaking. Religion just gets caught in the crossfire, or used to cement emotional feelings into some coherent understanding. The Hebrews beat the Unitarians by several thousand years.

I can see how I am labeled as a Christian humanist. However, I do not see an experience with God as just another religious experience. First religion has attempted to cement God into a religion. That is the rallying cry, "We have the 'key' to God". Why do we have to accept what some human has to say? All religions are in essence humanist. I think we agree on that. We have polytheism as proof. It is all just fabricated humanist thought reaching out past one's own self to explain the universe around them.

What we do not agree on is the point God came first and then came human thought.

 

[Valka D'Ur]

It is to be expected, although we can't really know how each believer senses such things... And there is a quasi-polytheistic element even in christianity (via saint-worship), i think. That said, in ancient Greece some were arguing very prominently for just One god (eg a number of philosophers)

I don't disagree at all about the saint-worship thing basically being polytheistic. When people bow and kneel and curtsy to statues of Mary and a plethora of other saints and pray to them, it's hard to take seriously the claim that Catholicism is a monotheistic religion.

The student in my class was asking about regular people, though, not the philosophers or academics (either ancient or modern). My dad's friends were Christian, and owned a restaurant. So the question would have been about the people who are essentially the tradespeople, the service industry, non-academic professionals... are there any folks in Greece who have opted for the old traditional polytheistic approach to religion (serious question; there are people in the Norse countries who have stated they reject the new religions and have gone back to the old)?

 

[Kyriakos]

I don't disagree at all about the saint-worship thing basically being polytheistic. When people bow and kneel and curtsy to statues of Mary and a plethora of other saints and pray to them, it's hard to take seriously the claim that Catholicism is a monotheistic religion.

The student in my class was asking about regular people, though, not the philosophers or academics (either ancient or modern). My dad's friends were Christian, and owned a restaurant. So the question would have been about the people who are essentially the tradespeople, the service industry, non-academic professionals... are there any folks in Greece who have opted for the old traditional polytheistic approach to religion (serious question; there are people in the Norse countries who have stated they reject the new religions and have gone back to the old)?

Yes, sadly there are some here. They are (most likely) loons, though ^^

 

[Valka D'Ur]

Yes, sadly there are some here. They are (most likely) loons, though ^^

Loons in what way? Genuinely mentally ill? Over-enthusiastic re-enactors? (some SCA people have gotten a bit carried away at times)

Or are they true believers in Zeus, Hera, Apollo, etc.?

 

[W|M]

Loons in what way? Genuinely mentally ill? Over-enthusiastic re-enactors? (some SCA people have gotten a bit carried away at times)

Birds

 

[Valka D'Ur]

Birds

Yes, I'm fully aware that loons are a type of bird. In fact, we have loons on our $1 coins, which is why they're colloquially known as a "loonie."

This is not the context for Kyriakos' reference to loons. I take it that he considers the people who choose to follow the ancient Greek gods to be mentally or psychologically deficient in some way, and I'm asking him to be more specific.

 

[Traitorfish]

I don't disagree at all about the saint-worship thing basically being polytheistic. When people bow and kneel and curtsy to statues of Mary and a plethora of other saints and pray to them, it's hard to take seriously the claim that Catholicism is a monotheistic religion.

By that reckoning, monotheism is something that only very rarely appears in human history, almost exclusively in the form of new or fundamentalist religious movements. Most Christians, most Muslims, even most Jews appear to be closet-polytheists in their reverence for saints, prophets and messiahs- not to mention the host of fairies, spirits and spooks that populate the imagination of most traditional societies.

It makes "monotheism" seem less like an attempt to describe the structures of religious belief and worship, and more like a cudgel to beat religion back into its proper place as a superstitious foil to our own enlightened modernity. (A modernity which always seems to reflect the assumptions and prejudices of cultural Protestantism- but, ah, maybe I'm just bitter.)

This is not the context for Kyriakos' reference to loons. I take it that he considers the people who choose to follow the ancient Greek gods to be mentally or psychologically deficient in some way, and I'm asking him to be more specific.

I think he means to say that they're perceived as eccentric. As among Norse pagans, practitioners are mostly hippies or fascists, and the public tends to take a fairly dim view of both.

 

[Valka D'Ur]

By that reckoning, monotheism is something that only very rarely appears in human history, almost exclusively in the form of new or fundamentalist religious movements. Most Christians, most Muslims, even most Jews appear to be closet-polytheists in their reverence for saints, prophets and messiahs- not to mention the host of fairies, spirits and spooks that populate the imagination of most traditional societies.

It makes "monotheism" seem less like an attempt to describe the structures of religious belief and worship, and more like a cudgel to beat religion back into its proper place as a superstitious foil to our own enlightened modernity.

Yeah, we can't have enlightened modernity...

One of the things a Morinville, Alberta parent said in the CBC comment section in one of the articles about the problems of the lack of non-Catholic schools there was that she didn't think it was such a big deal for a non-Catholic to attend a Catholic school because "they have to learn their morals somewhere."

My morals are just fine, thank you. No statue-worshiping required.

 

[Traitorfish]

Yeah, we can't have enlightened modernity...

One of the things a Morinville, Alberta parent said in the CBC comment section in one of the articles about the problems of the lack of non-Catholic schools there was that she didn't think it was such a big deal for a non-Catholic to attend a Catholic school because "they have to learn their morals somewhere."

My morals are just fine, thank you. No statue-worshiping required.

My point wasn't that enlightened modernity is a bad thing. It's that it's religion is often reduced to a caricature of superstitious ritual, and given how hugely important religious belief and practice has been to most people through most of history, this seems to me basically anti-humanist, and therefore counter-productive to any "enlightened modernity" worthy of the name.