AdamGM
Warlord
I'm not at all. But the sacredness of life isn't a rule that one can find in nature, so I'm wondering where you got it from.
Morality exists without your God.
- Thread starter Askthepizzaguy
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I'm not at all. But the sacredness of life isn't a rule that one can find in nature, so I'm wondering where you got it from.
Why would you use nature as a starting point?
Lord Gay
Emperor
Perhaps because I'm sleepy, but I don't see how. Life leads us to place values on things relative to us. If we live around others, then hopefully we'll learn empathy and factor in the values of others into our own value system.
At the least I'll rank things good or bad for myself alone. With community, I'll rank things good or bad for people, not just myself.
Providing an example of a nice dinner is a very pleasant option to deal with]
Glad I could oblige. I'll get the nice china.
Yes, which is why we have never-ending debates on abortion, gay rights, evolution, etc. Notice that these are religious issues, and revolve around imposition.
I would suggest that theists also have subjective positions, they just call them objective. Theists are, in a way, getting their views from somewhere else as opposed to being derived from personal life experiences. This makes them harder to defend IMO because you are, in a way, arguing someone else's position.
Why do some people abandon their faith? I would posit that for some, they find the message of their faith at odds with their own experiences, and this contradiction leads to a point where something has to give. They see the 'objective truths' not meshing with their experiences in life.
Perhaps because I'm tired or because it's very obvious to me, but I'm not sure what it is you're asking. How is weighing the pros and cons of issues not clear? How is considering things on a case by case basis not good? It almost seems to my fuzzy mind that you're suggesting that we should just use predefined answers to any given problem.
To me, that's an abdication of responsibility and a bad way of doing things.
Lord Gay
Emperor
Empathy for others increases my chance of survival and level of comfort. If animals attack my tribe and we do nothing, we'll be picked off one by one until we're all dead. If we band together, we can repel the animals and our tribe will survive.
If I care for a wounded warrior, he will recover and can defend us more in the future. If I do nothing and let him die, that's one less defender in the future, increasing the chances that I or someone I care about will suffer.
Mr. Dictator
A Chain-Smoking Fox
Perhaps because life may not be all that sacred.
Formaldehyde
Both Fair And Balanced
Well, certain life seems to be. But some two-legged animals seem to be far more equal than others to many of those who worship gods.
I can't seem to help detect the all-too-typical undercurrent here that atheists and agnostics have no basis for morals. Yet we usually have the same morals as just about any other modern civilized society has. We just base them on secular reasons instead of religious ones. The only major difference seems to be that we expect to be held responsible for our actual "sins" instead of being constantly forgiven.
I can't seem to help detect the all-too-typical undercurrent here that atheists and agnostics have no basis for morals. Yet we usually have the same morals as just about any other modern civilized society has. We just base them on secular reasons instead of religious ones. The only major difference seems to be that we expect to be held responsible for our actual "sins" instead of being constantly forgiven.
Lord Gay
Emperor
It certainly wasn't in feudal Europe or Japan. Life was cheap and death was common.
Mr. Dictator
A Chain-Smoking Fox
I don't think we have to stop so recently either. Life is death, and has been since the very beginnings of life.
Life itself may not be sacred, but to learn to see life as what binds us together in an uncaring universe is what allows us to pull gods from the gore.
Askthepizzaguy
Know the Dark Side
From where does my morality come?
From my mind, same as everyone else's. Except, some people's minds are made up based on the writings of a book, and others view that book skeptically, as it is not a very moral book, and makes no sense.
From my mind, same as everyone else's. Except, some people's minds are made up based on the writings of a book, and others view that book skeptically, as it is not a very moral book, and makes no sense.
It's not right for anyone to compel others to follow their beliefs. But ultimately the power of persuasion is much more powerful for the theist than the atheist. And so that's who we need to be concerned about.
Objective morality comes from the laws of the universe. We're sentient organisms that are capable of interacting with each other according to meta-rules.
Why are things good? It's a bit of a nonsense question. It's like saying "why are things tasty?" The short answer is because they trigger a specific combination of taste, temperature, and texture receptors in our mouth that correlate to neuronal signaling that, in our evolutionary history, was advantageous to consume.
Does that really answer the question? To first glance it does, but if we're going to be as particular with that question ("why are things tasty?") as with "why are things good?" then it won't answer the question.
Things are good because they benefit sentient organisms. Scenarios can create short-term goodness and long-term goodness. Moral laws create the ability to maximize goodness amongst participants. There're behaviours that are more mutually beneficial, and behaviours that make the net-result worse.
What's interesting is that I don't think you have a basis for thinking there's objective morality. You seem to be arguing that there's only subjective morality, but that God's opinion just matters more. So, imo, you should be careful of your reasoning. I'm arguing that this objective morality exists regardless of God's opinion (or even Its very existence). Randomly poking a dog in the eye is wrong, whether or not God thinks it's wrong. It's the pain that the dog experiences that making jabbing its eye wrong, not your opinion, my opinion, or anyone else's opinion.
Stabbing babies, Classical_Hero. Ripping children from mothers. Creating open boils and sores on livestock and the young
It really is hilarious that you think you have a basis for objecting. Given that (nearly) everyone is an evil-doer, you've just justified all abusive behaviour. Using your logic, I could release rabid pit-bulls into a school yard, because the parents have sinned and they 'need to learn a lesson'.
You serve such a weak god
Maybe God should focus his attention on prevention instead of punishment.
Mr. Dictator
A Chain-Smoking Fox
Using his logic, it'd only be okay if it were a St. Bernard.
Save_Ferris
Admiring Myself
Actually, without a god life is probably the most special and wonderful creation of the universe we have. Something that's in front of us yet we cannot comprehend its complexity. I think everyone can agree about that.
Traitorfish
The Tighnahulish Kid
Nothing about that implies sanctity.
Lord Gay
Emperor
Save_Ferris
Admiring Myself
Well, not sacred in the dictionary sense, but sacred to our hearts. It's certainly sacred to mine.
Ayatollah So
the spoof'll set you free
This, so very very much.
Moreover, to the extent that (I'll paint with a broad brush here) fundamentalists offer any explanation at all why God's opinion matters more, it's almost always because God has the power. It's "might makes right". That's their "moral" core.
Lord Gay said:
That's nonsense. People died, sure, and often, sure mostly as a result of age/accident/mundane stuff. But that doesn't mean people thought life was cheap. People still mourned, contributed to building churches/stupas, or had masses/prayers said for the dead, and so forth. The costs of ministering to the dead then were probably relatively higher than the typical funeral now. (Which goes some way to explaining the enduring popularity of burial schemes, among the first corporations and insurance firms to come about).
Traitorfish
The Tighnahulish Kid
That's just a flowery way of saying "I really like it", which is not what I get the impression AdamGM was talking about.
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