Morality of Financial Domination

Commodore

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In this thread we are going to discuss whether or not it is okay for someone who is providing financial support to another person to leverage that financial support in order to get what they want from the person they are supporting. For the sake of this discussion we are going to assume everyone involved in any hypothetical scenarios are all able-bodied adults, with 'adult' being defined as someone who is considered by law to be old enough to seek employment.

To give a little context as to what exactly I'm talking about here's a real life situation: I am the sole financial provider for my family. My wife is a housewife by choice. That choice came with consequences though and I told her that back when we got married. The consequences of her being a housewife are that she will have no official say in household finances, I would maintain control over the bank accounts and any lines of credit available to us. Basically, if she wants to spend anything I have to approve it first, but I do not have to seek such approval from her for any purchases I make. I pay all of the bills including her brand new car that is solely in her name (I didn't even cosign on the loan), her student loans from massage school (training she has done nothing with and couldn't now even if she wanted to) from before we were married, and some other miscellaneous debt she has accrued.

In return for all of that, not only do I maintain complete control over the finances, but I have expectations of what she needs to accomplish each day as a housewife. I expect all the housework to be done, the dishes to be washed by the end of the night, and for her to take our daughter to all of the things she has to do during the day since I am either doing school work or working most of the day, even on weekends. We live in a pretty modest apartment so it's not like it's hard to clean the whole place in a couple of hours, so I don't think my expectations are all that unreasonable. Recently though, she has started complaining that she wants me to help out with the housework, and almost demanding that I try to make more money than I already am so she has more to spend (even though I make more than enough for our current lifestyle). Along those same lines, she wants more freedom to spend as well without me having to approve it. I told her that she could spend as much as she wants and I'll help out around the house when she gets a job and helps me out by paying her own bills like a responsible adult. She got an attitude with me so I told her I didn't feel very appreciated and maybe I'll just pay my bills and half of our joint bills like rent, utilities, etc. and just leave it up to her how to cover the rest. This is where the financial domination comes in. She has absolutely no job skills to speak of because she never got licensed as a massage therapist and the time limit has expired for her to do so, so she'd have to go through massage school all over again; and she has been just sitting around as a housewife. So the best she could get is a part-time minimum wage job, and that would not be anywhere near enough to cover her financial obligations. She knows this, which is why the mere mention of making her pay her own bills is enough to make that attitude of hers disappear and get her to start acting the way I want her to. I've had to do this about two or three times since we've been married and it has worked every time. I also allow her to keep accruing more and more debt on her own as well to ensure the tactic continues to work since she can't dig herself out of her financial hole without my help.

The question I am asking is: Do you think it is okay to exert that kind of financial dominance over someone to ensure their compliance with your wishes? Personally, I think it is okay because it prevents the one providing the support from being taken advantage of by the one receiving the support.
 
did you buy her a burka?

So I take it you don't think it's okay then?

If so let me ask you this: How is it in any way fair that I should both provide financially and maintain the home while she gets to essentially continue to live as a child with someone else taking care of her?

EDIT: To provide a little more context: I was raised in a household where the prevailing philosophy was the one who makes the money, makes the rules. I happen to agree with that philosophy because it makes sense at the family level, where it is more efficient to have a single decision maker.
 
You are able to more easily go out and make a living because she is providing support on the homefront. You do not have to worry so much about cooking or cleaning. Every marriage has different kinks, so if this is one that both of you consent to, I see no problem with that. At divorce, the judge will surely cut her off a bigger slice of the financial pie than it appears you think she merits.
 
What do you believe a stay at home spouse is worth? Chauffeur, day care, chef, nurse, waitress, food buyer, child psychologist? Have you put any value on that?

Marriage is an economic entity and each partner makes a different but equally important contribution. She has provided the environment in which you could successfully carry out your activities. She has probably influenced your net worth by 20 to 50 percent and given you a tax benefit too by filing jointly.

You should give her some financial benefits of your paycheck if you want the marriage to survive this.
 
I told her I didn't feel very appreciated and maybe I'll just pay my bills and half of our joint bills like rent, utilities, etc. and just leave it up to her how to cover the rest.
Yeah, pay half the rent and utilities and see how that works out for you. My bet is you would cave prior to eviction or the lights being shut off.
 
This doesn't sound like an especially healthy outlook on a marriage, and it sure doesn't seem like you hold a ton of esteem for the work of somebody at home, but what do I know?
 
The question I am asking is: Do you think it is okay to exert that kind of financial dominance over someone to ensure their compliance with your wishes?

The kind of relationship you want to build with your wife is up to you.

You are in a position of great leverage now, but if she's supposed to be your partner in life, maybe use it a little bit more.. prudently? I mean, I have no idea who your wife is or what she's like, but you're making it sound like you order her around like Putin and take no prisoners.. and make her sound a bit lazy & entitled. So what sort of partnership is that exactly? And what happens when for whatever reason your wife gains some leverage? Don't you think she's going to remember your authoritative ways? I'm not even saying that the worst thing here is "this could backfire".. that's the least of your problems I think.
 
What do you believe a stay at home spouse is worth? Chauffeur, day care, chef, nurse, waitress, food buyer, child psychologist? Have you put any value on that?

Marriage is an economic entity and each partner makes a different but equally important contribution. She has provided the environment in which you could successfully carry out your activities. She has probably influenced your net worth by 20 to 50 percent and given you a tax benefit too by filing jointly.

You should give her some financial benefits of your paycheck if you want the marriage to survive this.

To put it business terms, her compensation package is everything that I pay for. I learned early in my adult life that legally, compensation is not just how much you receive in cold, hard cash, but any benefits you receive as well. So considering I pay the bills, provide the health insurance, a vehicle to drive, etc. her total compensation package is pretty significant.

So she already receives quite a bit of my paycheck in compensation, it's just not in the form of actual cash-in-hand for her to spend.

JollyRoger said:
At divorce, the judge will surely cut her off a bigger slice of the financial pie than it appears you think she merits.

I've already been preparing for that eventuality. I've been meeting with a divorce attorney who is quite sympathetic to my side of things, and we have been preparing a strategy in case she finally decided to leave one day. Let's just say I'm guaranteed custody of our daughter so anything I'll end up paying her in alimony, she'll just be giving right back in child support. Our assets are also clearly divided so I already know what I stand to lose in a potential divorce and have already planned for it. The only uncertainty is the actual bank accounts, but I have a plan for that which I'd rather not divulge here in case our marriage does go belly up.
 
Basically what Whomp and JR said.

As to being "taken advantage" of, that's really more an issue of trust. If you're married or in any sort of partnership where you share responsibilities I think it's healthier to think of money as belonging to both partners. Ideally, each partner trusts the other to spend wisely and keep the interests of the partnership in mind when they spend. Thus if you trust your wife to spend money wisely, you should not have to keep tabs on how it is spent. If a partner betrays that trust and puts you in financial peril, then that's a problem. But if you don't trust her I would personally work on getting to that place of trust rather than being the eternal gatekeeper of the finances.

I make more than my wife, which is an unfair reality of how the marketplace values my skills over hers. (Hers are way more valuable than mine on a human level, she literally tries to make the world a better place every day. Life is unfair.) I personally feel it is very important in our relationship to do the opposite of what you are saying--I actively avoid lording anything over her and I think it would be unfair and disrespectful to her for numerous reasons, some of which JR and Whomp pointed out, but primarily I truly do not feel I have anything to lord over her. It's just money, I make it for both of us, and she makes her money for both of us, and we are in this together. The other things we each do for each other are way more valuable than money.

We share all our money and all the finances and all significant financial decisions are made by both of us together. We both have total freedom to spend as we each please, there is no "well you can spend this much and I can spend this much" going on. If we ask each other about purchasing choices it is because we objectively want the other to weigh in, not because we want or need approval. Conversely if we spend money on something silly we both have the right to criticize the other. And invariably I am the one spending money frivolously, not her. She is way more frugal than me.(E.g., a new computer I did not need, a totally frivolous purchase she deservedly chided me for). This is the case even though I could justify it on some technicality as being "my money" (which it really isn't, it's ours).

I feel like the relationship you are describing--where one party clearly tries to hold the power in the relationship at the expense of the other--is going to be fraught with peril. If you've already met with a divorce attorney to "prepare," well... yeah that kind of speaks for itself I think.

I reread this and if it comes off as patronizing, sorry I really did not mean it that way.
 
I've already been preparing for that eventuality. I've been meeting with a divorce attorney who is quite sympathetic to my side of things, and we have been preparing a strategy in case she finally decided to leave one day. Let's just say I'm guaranteed custody of our daughter so anything I'll end up paying her in alimony, she'll just be giving right back in child support. Our assets are also clearly divided so I already know what I stand to lose in a potential divorce and have already planned for it. The only uncertainty is the actual bank accounts, but I have a plan for that which I'd rather not divulge here in case our marriage does go belly up.

I'm sure when her attorney makes a proper request in discovery that you will follow the rules and turn over the contents of this thread, right?
 
It's regrettable... But you made your bed and you're going to be stuck lying in it.

I have a bit more sympathy for your position than some others, but at the same time it's your fault for chaining yourself to such a waste of oxygen. I can't imagine dating, let alone marrying someone who expected to be cared for financially and never have to work a day in their life.
I understand and respect your position, but in the end of the day it isn't a position where she can be happy. And if she can't be happy neither will you. My parents divided labor while my Dad worked and my Mom stayed home but their shared power, I've asked my Dad about it and he felt it was perfectly fair. I don't... But I think in the end a marriage needs people who can see each other as equals and if that means similar earning power then so be it.
All that is negated if you are rich enough to have a straight up trophy wife/sex toy, but that's clearly not your situation.
 
This is hilarious
 
As to your strategizing with your attorney, just remember the ice sculpture theory of lawyering.

2. Preserve your ice sculpture.
I stole this one from a law school classmate. He says he
thinks of every case like a brand new ice sculpture just
removed from the freezer. Beautiful and solid. But from
that point forward it’s going to melt. Your mission is to
make certain you get a resolution before it turns to water.
This is important for two distinct reasons.
First, you need to work fast. Don’t delay. Don’t hesitate.
Don’t waste time or resources.

Second, understand that your case is never as good as it is
going to appear when your client comes to your office and
tells you his or her story. On that first day you will take
your ice sculpture from your client meeting and be proud
to show it off. Then another lawyer will come along with
a pick and a blow dryer and start chipping and melting
away. Eventually an arm will fall off. Or you’ll lose the
head. But it’s still your ice sculpture. Strap that sculpture
in the front seat, turn the air conditioner as low as it will
go, and get to the wedding reception as quick as possible.
No detours.
http://www.texasbar.com/AM/Template.cfm?Section=Past_Issues&Template=/CM/HTMLDisplay.cfm&ContentID=27894
 
I'm sure when her attorney makes a proper request in discovery that you will follow the rules and turn over the contents of this thread, right?

Only if they can prove that it was, in fact, me that wrote these words. But to do that, they would have to first even know these words exist in the first place and manage to somehow tie this thread to me. ;)
 
Only if they can prove that it was, in fact, me that wrote these words. But to do that, they would have to first even know these words exist in the first place and manage to somehow tie this thread to me. ;)

If you are willing to cheat, yes. I could write a broadly-worded discovery request that would legally obligate you to disclose the existence of your account and user-name here. A simple search would turn up this thread.
 
If you are willing to cheat, yes. I could write a broadly-worded discovery request that would legally obligate you to disclose the existence of your account and user-name here. A simple search would turn up this thread.

Ah, but that's because right now you know I'm up to something shady. Would an attorney who doesn't suspect what I am up to write such a discovery request? Even then, my wife has no idea what sites I post on, so how would they know if I divulged every single site where I have an account?

And all that is assuming she can even get a decent attorney. I was thinking of pulling a Tony Soprano when his wife was thinking about divorcing him. He went out and got a consultation from every decent attorney around them so they couldn't work for her due to conflict of interest. I'm not above doing the same thing.

I know I sound like an absolute monster right now, but that's because we are talking about my financial assets here. I love my wife, I truly do, but in the event we would get divorced, I would play just about every dirty trick I could to protect my assets.
 
And all that is assuming she can even get a decent attorney. I was thinking of pulling a Tony Soprano when his wife was thinking about divorcing him. He went out and got a consultation from every decent attorney around them so they couldn't work for her due to conflict of interest. I'm not above doing the same thing.

I know I sound like an absolute monster right now, but that's because we are talking about my financial assets here. I love my wife, I truly do, but in the event we would get divorced, I would play just about every dirty trick I could to protect my assets.

If this is how you think about your wife, why do you care about the morality of this decision? You've already proven you're willing to act immorally. Just divorce this woman and see if you can get yourself in a relationship with somebody you can actually trust.
 
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