Morality of Financial Domination

[Lay_Lay]

Um yeah, this was better the first time when it was called Sleeping With the Enemy.
The guy dies in the end, remember.

 

[Commodore]

If this is how you think about your wife, why do you give a damn about the morality of this decision? You've already proven you're willing to act immorally. Just divorce this woman and see if you can get yourself in a relationship with somebody you can actually trust.

Well because I love her, and she's not really a bad woman. Most of what I am talking about are fairly recent developments with her and I have a sneaking suspicion of where it came from. She has this friend that pretty much walks all over her husband. She spends all his money, makes him take care of the kid, do the housework, etc. She doesn't work at all and whenever he shows even the slightest bit of backbone she threatens to leave and take their son with her. Ever since my wife started hanging out with this woman, I've noticed she has started to adopt some of her personality traits.

I've tried to talk to my wife about how I think this woman is negatively impacting her personality, and I have expressed my desire for my wife to stop associating with her. After that, she started trying to pull some of that "I'm gonna walk all over my husband" crap with me and that's when I started taking a hardline stance with the money since that was the only thing that seemed to snap her out of that attitude.

 

[JollyRoger]

Ah, but that's because right now you know I'm up to something shady. Would an attorney who doesn't suspect what I am up to write such a discovery request? Even then, my wife has no idea what sites I post on, so how would they know if I divulged every single site where I have an account?

And all that is assuming she can even get a decent attorney. I was thinking of pulling a Tony Soprano when his wife was thinking about divorcing him. He went out and got a consultation from every decent attorney around them so they couldn't work for her due to conflict of interest. I'm not above doing the same thing.

I know I sound like an absolute monster right now, but that's because we are talking about my financial assets here. I love my wife, I truly do, but in the event we would get divorced, I would play just about every dirty trick I could to protect my assets.

The discovery request if fairly standard and your duty to answer it truthfully is per the law. You would likely get away with skirting the law, but be careful - if you get caught lying, it will hit your precious finances much harder.

 

[bathsheba666]

As regards the OP, I've never in my life heard anyone more in need of a relaxing massage.

Let's hope there's a happy ending for you...

 

[Valka D'Ur]

In this thread we are going to discuss whether or not it is okay for someone who is providing financial support to another person to leverage that financial support in order to get what they want from the person they are supporting. For the sake of this discussion we are going to assume everyone involved in any hypothetical scenarios are all able-bodied adults, with 'adult' being defined as someone who is considered by law to be old enough to seek employment.

To give a little context as to what exactly I'm talking about here's a real life situation: I am the sole financial provider for my family. My wife is a housewife by choice. That choice came with consequences though and I told her that back when we got married. The consequences of her being a housewife are that she will have no official say in household finances, I would maintain control over the bank accounts and any lines of credit available to us. Basically, if she wants to spend anything I have to approve it first, but I do not have to seek such approval from her for any purchases I make. I pay all of the bills including her brand new car that is solely in her name (I didn't even cosign on the loan), her student loans from massage school (training she has done nothing with and couldn't now even if she wanted to) from before we were married, and some other miscellaneous debt she has accrued.

In return for all of that, not only do I maintain complete control over the finances, but I have expectations of what she needs to accomplish each day as a housewife. I expect all the housework to be done, the dishes to be washed by the end of the night, and for her to take our daughter to all of the things she has to do during the day since I am either doing school work or working most of the day, even on weekends. We live in a pretty modest apartment so it's not like it's hard to clean the whole place in a couple of hours, so I don't think my expectations are all that unreasonable. Recently though, she has started complaining that she wants me to help out with the housework, and almost demanding that I try to make more money than I already am so she has more to spend (even though I make more than enough for our current lifestyle). Along those same lines, she wants more freedom to spend as well without me having to approve it. I told her that she could spend as much as she wants and I'll help out around the house when she gets a job and helps me out by paying her own bills like a responsible adult. She got an attitude with me so I told her I didn't feel very appreciated and maybe I'll just pay my bills and half of our joint bills like rent, utilities, etc. and just leave it up to her how to cover the rest. This is where the financial domination comes in. She has absolutely no job skills to speak of because she never got licensed as a massage therapist and the time limit has expired for her to do so, so she'd have to go through massage school all over again; and she has been just sitting around as a housewife. So the best she could get is a part-time minimum wage job, and that would not be anywhere near enough to cover her financial obligations. She knows this, which is why the mere mention of making her pay her own bills is enough to make that attitude of hers disappear and get her to start acting the way I want her to. I've had to do this about two or three times since we've been married and it has worked every time. I also allow her to keep accruing more and more debt on her own as well to ensure the tactic continues to work since she can't dig herself out of her financial hole without my help.

The question I am asking is: Do you think it is okay to exert that kind of financial dominance over someone to ensure their compliance with your wishes? Personally, I think it is okay because it prevents the one providing the support from being taken advantage of by the one receiving the support.

Basic answer: No.

I foresee divorce in your future, and hopefully sooner rather than later. I also hope there is a set of grandparents willing to raise your daughter since you plan to leave her mother penniless, and with that attitude I certainly wouldn't consider you good parenting material. How old is the daughter, and at what point will you order her to wash the dishes, clean the house, cook your meals, and do your laundry in return for food and a roof over her head and figure that's a loving relationship?

So I take it you don't think it's okay then?

If so let me ask you this: How is it in any way fair that I should both provide financially and maintain the home while she gets to essentially continue to live as a child with someone else taking care of her?

EDIT: To provide a little more context: I was raised in a household where the prevailing philosophy was the one who makes the money, makes the rules. I happen to agree with that philosophy because it makes sense at the family level, where it is more efficient to have a single decision maker.

She does housework and cooks your meals and drives the kid around. She also presumably does "marital duties." That's not living as a child.

Yeah, pay half the rent and utilities and see how that works out for you. My bet is you would cave prior to eviction or the lights being shut off.

Yep, the landlord and utility companies don't care about your domestic squabbles. Telling them that it's her turn to pay will still leave you without electricity, water, heat, and a place to live.

To put it business terms, her compensation package is everything that I pay for. I learned early in my adult life that legally, compensation is not just how much you receive in cold, hard cash, but any benefits you receive as well. So considering I pay the bills, provide the health insurance, a vehicle to drive, etc. her total compensation package is pretty significant.

So is yours. Have you added up what you would have to pay someone for all the work your wife is doing?

I've already been preparing for that eventuality. I've been meeting with a divorce attorney who is quite sympathetic to my side of things, and we have been preparing a strategy in case she finally decided to leave one day. Let's just say I'm guaranteed custody of our daughter so anything I'll end up paying her in alimony, she'll just be giving right back in child support. Our assets are also clearly divided so I already know what I stand to lose in a potential divorce and have already planned for it. The only uncertainty is the actual bank accounts, but I have a plan for that which I'd rather not divulge here in case our marriage does go belly up.

Unless your wife has demonstrated unfitness to be a parent, I wouldn't count on custody. And it doesn't matter if your lawyer is sympathetic. It matters if the judge is, and any social agencies that might weigh in on custody issues.

How is it you expect your wife to pay child support if she has no job?

As for not divulging your plans for the bank accounts, are you afraid that someone here will track down Mrs. Commodore and warn her?

Why not divorce this poor woman now and get it over with? I'd assume you're thinking about the daughter, but I half expect the reason to be an economic one.

Years' worth of whatever the American equivalent is of child tax benefits and subsidies, plus unpaid chores (after all, she gets food, clothing, shelter, and medical care; why give her an allowance for those chores?). I don't know how old she is, but typically a girl's first job is babysitting. Will you demand she turn over her money to you after every babysitting job since only you can be trusted with it?

I'm sure when her attorney makes a proper request in discovery that you will follow the rules and turn over the contents of this thread, right?

It's regrettable... But you made your bed and you're going to be stuck lying in it.

I have a bit more sympathy for your position than some others, but at the same time it's your fault for chaining yourself to such a waste of oxygen. I can't imagine dating, let alone marrying someone who expected to be cared for financially and never have to work a day in their life.

All that is negated if you are rich enough to have a straight up trophy wife/sex toy, but that's clearly not your situation.

Housework is work.

Only if they can prove that it was, in fact, me that wrote these words. But to do that, they would have to first even know these words exist in the first place and manage to somehow tie this thread to me.

Nowadays people usually get asked about their online activities.

Ah, but that's because right now you know I'm up to something shady. Would an attorney who doesn't suspect what I am up to write such a discovery request? Even then, my wife has no idea what sites I post on, so how would they know if I divulged every single site where I have an account?

Are you sure she doesn't know, or can't find out?

I know I sound like an absolute monster right now, but that's because we are talking about my financial assets here. I love my wife, I truly do, but in the event we would get divorced, I would play just about every dirty trick I could to protect my assets.

Yes, you do. Nobody who loves his wife would allow such a home situation as you have.

This story reminds me all over again of one of the reasons why I never married. And any woman who does not maintain a bank account of her own, in case of emergencies such as needing to escape an abusive spouse or divorce, is an idiot. It's nice that some of you guys in this thread have such trusting relationships with your wives that everything is jointly held, but honestly I can't fathom it.

Well because I love her, and she's not really a bad woman. Most of what I am talking about are fairly recent developments with her and I have a sneaking suspicion of where it came from. She has this friend that pretty much walks all over her husband. She spends all his money, makes him take care of the kid, do the housework, etc. She doesn't work at all and whenever he shows even the slightest bit of backbone she threatens to leave and take their son with her. Ever since my wife started hanging out with this woman, I've noticed she has started to adopt some of her personality traits.

I've tried to talk to my wife about how I think this woman is negatively impacting her personality, and I have expressed my desire for my wife to stop associating with her. After that, she started trying to pull some of that "I'm gonna walk all over my husband" crap with me and that's when I started taking a hardline stance with the money since that was the only thing that seemed to snap her out of that attitude.

Have you considered marriage counseling?


Some other thoughts: How big a purchase is she allowed to make before you have to approve it? Is she allowed to buy herself a cup of coffee, or take the kid out for a treat without your approval? Can she buy a package of gum? Clothes (in a moderate price range)? Or is it more sensible restriction to do with major purchases like electronics or furniture? Do you even ask her opinion before making a decision, or do you keep her in the dark about everything? A real loving husband would want his wife to know what's going on with the family finances in case he gets fatally hit by a bus, or has a catastrophic illness.

Honestly, it's great that you paid her debts. That was generous. And it would have been nice if she'd gotten a job to offset that, at least before getting pregnant. But your attitude that she doesn't work and you consider her a child and therefore not deserving of basic respect is reprehensible. I'm sure glad I'm not married to someone like you.

 

[IglooDame]

There are plenty of women out there that are actively seeking the relationship/rules you currently have with your wife, Commodore, even if they were making more money than you. Of course, they're also looking for someone they can trust, so YMMV. But since your current relationship is apparently becoming non-consensual, my advice is to go divorce your wife, acknowledge that her household engineering duties did have substantial value over the years, hope your wife's divorce lawyer isn't JR, and go find one of those women.

 

[Borachio]

Well because I love her, and she's not really a bad woman.

Do you really love her? It doesn't sound like you do.

And it doesn't sound like she loves you either, tbh.

But who can tell? Only you can, of course. And your wife.

 

[Perfection]

The question I am asking is: Do you think it is okay to exert that kind of financial dominance over someone to ensure their compliance with your wishes? Personally, I think it is okay because it prevents the one providing the support from being taken advantage of by the one receiving the support.

Personally I wouldn't put myself in a marriage where I couldn't trust my wife with my checkbook.

Perhaps it would be illuminating to actually try to understand what she does. Chart her time for a week and see how it compares to your work. Budget her requests. You need to be careful and fair to your wife before you complain about equity.

The last thing to mention is you feel that you are free to make big financial decisions without her despite the fact it effects her and her daughter. That's not okay.

 

[classical_hero]

You are not Christian Gray.

 

[Perfection]

I like how he talks about making less than the poverty line so he can take government money in the other thread

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=544924

Wife must be a real gold digger


Hey since a large portion of your income comes out of my sizeable federal withholding can I boss you around?

 

[galdre]

Frankly, if you do not treat the person you are married to as an equal partner in all decisions, you should not be married. It has nothing to do with "arrangements", this is simply about domination of another person, and the financial situation is the just the weak justification.

 

[Valka D'Ur]

I like how he talks about making less than the poverty line so he can take government money in the other thread

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=544924

Wife must be a real gold digger

Seems like a reasonable "just in case the wife gets custody of the kid, plus alimony and child support" provision.


Of course we're only hearing one side of this. I wonder what Mrs. Commodore would have to say. Assuming she's allowed to talk to strangers, that is.

 

[galdre]

Of course we're only hearing one side of this. I wonder what Mrs. Commodore would have to say. Assuming she's allowed to talk to strangers, that is.

That would depend on whether her master is there to hear the answer.

 

[Tahuti]

The question I am asking is: Do you think it is okay to exert that kind of financial dominance over someone to ensure their compliance with your wishes?

Yes it is. However, in your case, I think you are definitely overleveraging your position, which should tell something given that I'm supposed to be one in support of traditional gender roles. She already does all the chores and given that you are the one who is making the money, that's fairly reasonable. However, you should be giving her some say in the spending, which you should see as a reward for the fact she does all the chores.

It's your wife though, so you have to make the decision: I won't be able to force you and no one should, though you asked for an advice and here you have one. However, I can imagine that doing chores while not getting any compensation for those in the form of some influence on spending can be a source of friction. If I were in your shoes, I would definitely seek to address that.

 

[Borachio]

Men are from Mars. Women are from Venus.

Now, I didn't much like that book.

But I think it had some insights. One of which was that Men and Women do their accounting differently.

You mention that you pay all the bills, and paid off her loan for massage studies (!).

To you both those are big things and should count hugely in any calculation of who's contributing what to the relationship.

But for her that's only two thing that you do.

What she does is wash your underpants, your shirts, (and whatever else), cook all your meals (presumably at least once a day), clean the apartment, make all the arrangements for soft furnishings, and such like. So that's at least six things that she does for you each and every day. So that's 6 x 365 things that she does for you every year while you only do 2 things for her. And one of those you've only ever done once.

Do you see how this arrangement might seem less than fair to her? She's doing loads more things for you - FOR NOTHING. While you do very little for her.

This relationship is doomed! You're plainly not pulling your weight, sir.

 

[warpus]

Men are from Texas. Women are from Saudi Arabia.

 

[IglooDame]

Frankly, if you do not treat the person you are married to as an equal partner in all decisions, you should not be married. It has nothing to do with "arrangements", this is simply about domination of another person, and the financial situation is the just the weak justification.

I agree with the second of your two sentences.

Most marriages are unequal in the decisionmaking, from what I've seen. In some marriages it is explicit, in some it is implicit, and in some both spouses seem to be completely oblivious to it.

As long as the decisions are legitimately taking the health and happiness of both spouses into account, then I don't see the problem.

 

[Borachio]

I know a widow who says her husband made ALL the decisions. And she was quite happy to let him. If anything went wrong, they both knew who to blame.

 

[IglooDame]

I know a widow who says her husband made ALL the decisions. And she was quite happy to let him. If anything went wrong, they both knew who to blame.

Heh, indeed. Responsibility, authority, accountability - it doesn't work well if you don't have all three together.

 

[Wolfbeckett]

I know a widow who says her husband made ALL the decisions. And she was quite happy to let him. If anything went wrong, they both knew who to blame.

The government?