Muslim couple denied citizenship over handshake refusal

I think we're at risk of just accumulating a lot of dead-ends, so I'm going to trim this down to the angle I think has some mileage in it.

Okay, you are not listening to me and I will try, on more time, to clear this matter up.

It does not matter where a nation comes from!

It does not matter how a nation is formed!

It does not matter who thought up the nation!

If the nation exists now, it is a nation and has good reasons for being so.
Is it enough to say that the nation exists today? Most people, when considering "the nation", operate on the assumption that it existed yesterday, and that it will exist tomorrow. Continuity is hugely important. But if continuity is not a given, if the nation is fluid, negotiable, subject to invention and reinvention, neither of those propositions becomes reliable. In the absence of the sort of concrete reference points of a village, clan or tribe, what distinguishes "the nation" is not clearly anything more than the institutions that invoke it, not exclusively, but none the less primarily, those of the state.

Is that enough? It doesn't appear that you would think so, given your stated hostility to bureaucratic reason. You express a strong identification between the rejection of modernity and immersion in "national" life. So how do we reconcile this? How do we draw an authentic, non-rational experience from an organisational logic that appears inextricably bound up in artificial, rationalising institutions?
 
The Nation does not need to be questioned, explained, critiqued, or otherwise analyzed by effete globalist scholar-theorists. It simply is.
 
The Nation does not need to be questioned, explained, critiqued, or otherwise analyzed by effete globalist scholar-theorists. It simply is.
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Basically.

edit: crap, i misspelled "intellectuals". there's irony for you.
 
Is it enough to say that the nation exists today? Most people, when considering "the nation", operate on the assumption that it existed yesterday, and that it will exist tomorrow. Continuity is hugely important. But if continuity is not a given, if the nation is fluid, negotiable, subject to invention and reinvention, neither of those propositions becomes reliable. In the absence of the sort of concrete reference points of a village, clan or tribe, what distinguishes "the nation" is not clearly anything more than the institutions that invoke it, not exclusively, but none the less primarily, those of the state.

Is that enough? It doesn't appear that you would think so, given your stated hostility to bureaucratic reason. You express a strong identification between the rejection of modernity and immersion in "national" life. So how do we reconcile this? How do we draw an authentic, non-rational experience from an organisational logic that appears inextricably bound up in artificial, rationalising institutions?

You seem to believe that if a nation doesn't have a rigorously defined ontology, that makes it completely arbitrary. Which is a very strange position to take. Political parties, social classes, economies, and even consciousness run into the same problems. But all of those phenomena arise naturally and we assume they serve some kind of purpose. The fact that nationalism is expressed through the state only means that the state is useful for expressing it, not that it is required to (for instance, people of different communities can use 'Armenia' or 'Turkey' as a quick reference, instead of going through a list of all their cultural idiosyncrasies to compare themselves). And the state isn't always involved - national identity can last for decades in expatriate communities, which I presume you would call delusional?
 
You seem to believe that if a nation doesn't have a rigorously defined ontology, that makes it completely arbitrary. Which is a very strange position to take. Political parties, social classes, economies, and even consciousness run into the same problems. But all of those phenomena arise naturally and we assume they serve some kind of purpose. The fact that nationalism is expressed through the state only means that the state is useful for expressing it, not that it is required to (for instance, people of different communities can use 'Armenia' or 'Turkey' as a quick reference, instead of going through a list of all their cultural idiosyncrasies to compare themselves). And the state isn't always involved - national identity can last for decades in expatriate communities, which I presume you would call delusional?

Cultural identity can last for centuries even in states that try to suppress it (just look at the UK or Spain). Cultural identity isn't the same thing as a nation though.
 
You seem to believe that if a nation doesn't have a rigorously defined ontology, that makes it completely arbitrary.

That...is not what Tfish is saying at all. I'm not even sure what 'rigorously defined ontology' means in this context. What Tfish is trying to do is situate the nation as something that exists in historical space, while you are basically claiming it is transcendent and eternal, and that attempts to do what Tfish is doing are somehow also attacking a nation's legitimacy or existence.

Have to say, for someone who keeps insisting that "the nation" defies all scholarly attempt to understand it, you seem remarkably insecure about it. If a thing can be threatened so deeply simply by an effete scholar's attempt to understand it or explain it, it surely must be rather flimsy...
 
Cultural identity can last for centuries even in states that try to suppress it (just look at the UK or Spain). Cultural identity isn't the same thing as a nation though.

I didn't claim it was? National identity is based on shared origins and narrative, not just culture.
 
You seem to believe that if a nation doesn't have a rigorously defined ontology, that makes it completely arbitrary. Which is a very strange position to take. Political parties, social classes, economies, and even consciousness run into the same problems. But all of those phenomena arise naturally and we assume they serve some kind of purpose. The fact that nationalism is expressed through the state only means that the state is useful for expressing it, not that it is required to (for instance, people of different communities can use 'Armenia' or 'Turkey' as a quick reference, instead of going through a list of all their cultural idiosyncrasies to compare themselves).
There's a difference between "completely arbitrary" and merely contingent. I don't believe that German identity is arbitrary; there's a reason why, for example, it was successful in Saxony but not in Bohemia. But I don't believe that German identity, as we understand is historically necessary; the historical forces that placed Austria outside of "Germany" but Bavaria within it are bound up in too many variables to see it as an inevitably or even particularly likely outcome. It's simply the outcome we got- or, even more strictly, that we have for now.

The state, on the other hand, does require the nation to be something definite and independently-existing, at least so far as those claims to nationhood are based in an ethnic or cultural identity, and not in the constitutional continuity of the state itself. For the state to represent and embody the nation, the nation must be something capable of being represented and embodied. It's not sufficient for it to be just a cluster of reference points. Moreover, to maintain an authentically national character, the state requires that the nation be embodied exclusively by that state: two Frances or two Germanies are not sustainable, not without remaking one or both of the national fragments. Nobody really thinks of Taiwan as "China" any more, whatever the constitutional and diplomatic formalities. Nationhood is not sustainable so far as it is just one of the characteristics of a national state, it is be the defining and fundamental characteristics of that state, or the state is revealed as an institution that exists for its own sake. It's not enough for nationality to be something about the state, it has to be what the state is. Look at the recent legislation in Israel: what was that, if not an attempt to more rigorously define the character of the Israeli nation, and in doing so to affirm and clarify the "national" character of the Israeli state?

To the extent that language and culture become merely customs, merely the norms of public life, the foundation of the state is the state itself, is the state's own constitutional continuity. This probably pays some part in the lack of nationalist zeal in contemporary Germans, who try their very darndest to understood "Germany" in terms of the continuity of the Bundsrepublik, and not as tracing back to the misty Teutonic forests. It may be why modern nationalism tends to take an authoritarian slant in democracies, because it is necessary to ground the state in "the nation" only to the extent that the populace struggle to identify themselves with the state itself. The more open and democratic a state's institutions, the less necessary it is to imagine "the nation" in anything but civic terms. It stops being "the nation" so much as it becomes "the republic". Which, I've suggested previously, would not be a bad thing.

You also suggest the existence of nationless states, or nations that exist outside of states, but what is the process by which tribes or confederations or ethnic groups are made into "nations", if not through the state? To talk of Armenians or Kurds as a "nation" is to express an aspiration to statehood- or at least, to some form of self-government, to "national" institutions within the state, if not independent of all other states. There are more Gujurati than there are Poles, but we don't talk about a "Gujurati nation", because there is no clearly or commonly expressed aspiration among Gujurati for independent statehood. We might talk of a "Sikh nation", but doing so takes on a distinctly political cast, carries immediate connotations of Sikh separatism and the aspiration for an independent statehood. While nationality may not always be defined in explicit reference to the state, it is very generally reserved for peoples who possess, or might plausibly acquire, independent states, or significant degrees of self-government within existing states.

And the state isn't always involved - national identity can last for decades in expatriate communities, which I presume you would call delusional?
However, diaspora identities don't always have a lot to do with "homeland" identities. Irish-Americans and Irish-Irish don't have as many common reference points as the former might like to imagine. Experiences diverge, and what you're left with is shared history, not a shared present. How many Irish-American families take a clear position on the Fianna Fail/Fine Gael split, which was one of the primary reference points in Irish public life through the twentieth century? The nation as an eternal now falls very swiftly apart when it strays from the homeland. The persistence of diaspora identities and their construction as "national" identities is interesting, but too complex and often too specific to prop up the claims of homeland-nationalists.
 
That...is not what Tfish is saying at all. I'm not even sure what 'rigorously defined ontology' means in this context. What Tfish is trying to do is situate the nation as something that exists in historical space, while you are basically claiming it is transcendent and eternal, and that attempts to do what Tfish is doing are somehow also attacking a nation's legitimacy or existence.

Have to say, for someone who keeps insisting that "the nation" defies all scholarly attempt to understand it, you seem remarkably insecure about it. If a thing can be threatened so deeply simply by an effete scholar's attempt to understand it or explain it, it surely must be rather flimsy...

I think you should let TF speak for himself...the assumption I have been making all along is that he is attacking a nation's legitimacy, at least, that is what I had gathered from earlier posts such as this...

Then from where does the state derive such powers?

The conventional answer would be "the people". But if the state exercises an arbitrary right to decide who does and does not constitute "the people", then how can any such entity be said to exist prior to the state, and thus capable of legitimising it?

"Would it not be easier in that case for the government to dissolve the people and elect another?"
 
I think you should let TF speak for himself...the assumption I have been making all along is that he is attacking a nation's legitimacy, at least, that is what I had gathered from earlier posts such as this...

That post is very clearly an attack on the legitimacy of the state, or rather a bunch of states, not "the nation".
 
That post is very clearly an attack on the legitimacy of the state, or rather a bunch of states, not "the nation".
so...which one of these "states" is Switzerland?
 
The state, on the other hand, does require the nation to be something definite and independently-existing, at least so far as those claims to nationhood are based in an ethnic or cultural identity, and not in the constitutional continuity of the state itself. For the state to represent and embody the nation, the nation must be something capable of being represented and embodied. It's not sufficient for it to be just a cluster of reference points.

That's just it - the nation is one central reference point that carries a multitude of others inside it.

Moreover, to maintain an authentically national character, the state requires that the nation be embodied exclusively by that state: two Frances or two Germanies are not sustainable, not without remaking one or both of the national fragments. Nobody really thinks of Taiwan as "China" any more, whatever the constitutional and diplomatic formalities. Nationhood is not sustainable so far as it is just one of the characteristics of a national state, it is be the defining and fundamental characteristics of that state, or the state is revealed as an institution that exists for its own sake. It's not enough for nationality to be something about the state, it has to be what the state is. Look at the recent legislation in Israel: what was that, if not an attempt to more rigorously define the character of the Israeli nation, and in doing so to affirm and clarify the "national" character of the Israeli state?

I think it's more of an attempt to protect their right to national cohesion. That isn't emphasized when a nation is thirty million strong and secure on every border, but when you've listened to progressives demanding you alter your state to represent an outgroup just as much as your own - what is it then, a stock exchange that happens to have a lot of Jews? - and someone comes along saying they can ground sovereignty for your group into legislation, it's easy to overlook unfortunate implications of that.

To the extent that language and culture become merely customs, merely the norms of public life, the foundation of the state is the state itself, is the state's own constitutional continuity. This probably pays some part in the lack of nationalist zeal in contemporary Germans, who try their very darndest to understood "Germany" in terms of the continuity of the Bundsrepublik, and not as tracing back to the misty Teutonic forests. It may be why modern nationalism tends to take an authoritarian slant in democracies, because it is necessary to ground the state in "the nation" only to the extent that the populace struggle to identify themselves with the state itself. The more open and democratic a state's institutions, the less necessary it is to imagine "the nation" in anything but civic terms. It stops being "the nation" so much as it becomes "the republic". Which, I've suggested previously, would not be a bad thing.

Not every group is content to go without a voice in international affairs. Just because there are some that do (and usually ones who are quite successful already) doesn't make the idea of it wrong.

You also suggest the existence of nationless states, or nations that exist outside of states, but what is the process by which tribes or confederations or ethnic groups are made into "nations", if not through the state? To talk of Armenians or Kurds as a "nation" is to express an aspiration to statehood- or at least, to some form of self-government, to "national" institutions within the state, if not independent of all other states. There are more Gujurati than there are Poles, but we don't talk about a "Gujurati nation", because there is no clearly or commonly expressed aspiration among Gujurati for independent statehood. We might talk of a "Sikh nation", but doing so takes on a distinctly political cast, carries immediate connotations of Sikh separatism and the aspiration for an independent statehood. While nationality may not always be defined in explicit reference to the state, it is very generally reserved for peoples who possess, or might plausibly acquire, independent states, or significant degrees of self-government within existing states.

I'll admit the words nation and state do have some association, so I prefer the term 'group'. But just because that's true now doesn't mean it has to be. Calling someone a human being also carries connotations of perceived rights and boundaries, but that has not always been the case.

However, diaspora identities don't always have a lot to do with "homeland" identities. Irish-Americans and Irish-Irish don't have as many common reference points as the former might like to imagine. Experiences diverge, and what you're left with is shared history, not a shared present. How many Irish-American families take a clear position on the Fianna Fail/Fine Gael split, which was one of the primary reference points in Irish public life through the twentieth century? The nation as an eternal now falls very swiftly apart when it strays from the homeland.

Then... it's a good thing I don't view the nation as eternal and static? I'm just saying that they maintain a separate and unique identity. Whether it follows every change in their homelands, or even remains the same as them, isn't relevant.
 
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