My experience with game

[Hygro]

Truuuuue

 

[fishjie]

spoiler alert - neil strauss says at the end of the game (which apparently people don't actually read), that he realized pickup routines are bullfeathers (the routines stopped working because women in the clubs had heard the lines before), and the pickup gurus were gross and creepy. on the flip side of this though, guys want to have sex with hot women. any guy in the thread pretending otherwise or acting outraged by this fact are being completely dishonest, which is far more creepy.

 

[Phrossack]

spoiler alert - neil strauss says at the end of the game (which apparently people don't actually read), that he realized pickup routines are bullfeathers (the routines stopped working because women in the clubs had heard the lines before), and the pickup gurus were gross and creepy. on the flip side of this though, guys want to have sex with hot women. any guy in the thread pretending otherwise or acting outraged by this fact are being completely dishonest, which is far more creepy.

Not all of us men are sex-crazed, leering, cat-calling beasts. Speak for yourself.

 

[fishjie]

Not all of us men are sex-crazed, leering, cat-calling beasts. Speak for yourself.

i can let the metrics speak for themselves. pornhub has billions upon billions of views with detailed metrics about searches broken down per country and region. google does too. the existence, prevalence, and popularity of porn, especially porn that caters to straight men, speaks for itself. also, wanting to have sex with hot women is not the same as leering or cat calling. here, chris rock can express my views far more eloquently:

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Not all of us men are sex-crazed, leering, cat-calling beasts. Speak for yourself.

That's a question of techniques, not intentions.

 

[Phrossack]

i can let the metrics speak for themselves. pornhub has billions upon billions of views with detailed metrics about searches broken down per country and region. google does too. the existence, prevalence, and popularity of porn, especially porn that caters to straight men, speaks for itself. also, wanting to have sex with hot women is not the same as leering or cat calling. here, chris rock can express my views far more eloquently:

What I object to is how you assume that any and all men who claim they aren't always on the prowl for hookups are just lying creeps. As long as we're flinging accusations, I may as well say that such a thought could only come from the mind of a man who sees women as "conquests" and is always greedy for more, and who assumes all men are like him.

 

[Phrossack]

That's a question of techniques, not intentions.

I'm pretty open about how I don't go around hounding women. I have no interest in looking for sex from hot women. I'm not horny and I look for something more than just "hotness." There is nothing dishonest about that, and there is absolutely nothing creepy about not being sex-crazed.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

I'm pretty open about how I don't go around hounding women. I have no interest in looking for sex from hot women. I'm not horny and I look for something more than just "hotness." There is nothing dishonest about that, and there is absolutely nothing creepy about not being sex-crazed.

Agreed. There is a difference between having no interest in looking for sex with hot women, and having no interest in sex with hot women. There's also never been anyone, to my knowledge, who constrained their interest in sex with women by adding "but not with hot women."

 

[fishjie]

What I object to is how you assume that any and all men who claim they aren't always on the prowl for hookups are just lying creeps. As long as we're flinging accusations, I may as well say that such a thought could only come from the mind of a man who sees women as "conquests" and is always greedy for more, and who assumes all men are like him.

i'm saying there is an ancient desire to reproduce encoded into men - however i didn't say that it justifies how men act on that desire. pretending that it isn't there is dishonest though. your knee jerk reaction seems to be conflating that men want to have sex with hot women with say.... men grabbing women in public. the former doesn't justify the latter. however, doesn't change the fact that men want to have sex with hot women. if this were not the case, the straight male porn consisting of men performing sexual acts on attractive women, which comprises the majority of pornhub, simply wouldn't exist as a market. and the most popular female porn stars would sometimes be ugly, but have a great personality. porn doesn't lie, despite the moral grandstanding of dudes online.

maybe you're the exception and you're asexual and don't watch porn. that doesn't make the statement false for majority of males. The pickup guys are creepy, but as long as the women consent to have sex with them theyre not doing anything wrong. whats creepy are the nice guy dudes who secretly are in love with a woman, and hope that if theyre nice enough, someday they'll be entitled to have sex with them. and then get angry when it doesn't happen.

 

[Phrossack]

i'm saying there is an ancient desire to reproduce encoded into men - however i didn't say that it justifies how men act on that desire. pretending that it isn't there is dishonest though. your knee jerk reaction seems to be conflating that men want to have sex with hot women with say.... men grabbing women in public. the former doesn't justify the latter. however, doesn't change the fact that men want to have sex with hot women. if this were not the case, the straight male porn consisting of men performing sexual acts on attractive women, which comprises the majority of pornhub, simply wouldn't exist as a market. and the most popular female porn stars would sometimes be ugly, but have a great personality. porn doesn't lie, despite the moral grandstanding of dudes online.

maybe you're the exception and you're asexual and don't watch porn. that doesn't make the statement false for majority of males. The pickup guys are creepy, but as long as the women consent to have sex with them theyre not doing anything wrong. whats creepy are the nice guy dudes who secretly are in love with a woman, and hope that if theyre nice enough, someday they'll be entitled to have sex with them. and then get angry when it doesn't happen.

That's more reasoned. I've been nearly asexual for the past two years and have never had any interest in porn. "Nice Guys," a.k.a. entitled guys, are creepy; but there's nothing creepy about not chasing after women or being horny, is all I'm saying.

 

[Valka D'Ur]

Did you just assume my gender?

You have it in your sidebar information: "Gender: Male"

If that's not accurate, you should go into your profile and change it.

Mary might make more money in a year that I can dream of. She got to wher she is by her own abilities, which I applaud strongly. But who is oppressing her, exactly? She might be better off than billions of men.

What does her income have to do with it? Are higher-income people somehow immune from being oppressed/bullied/harassed?

I wouldn't readily assume that, talking about white American. Besides, people who got somewhere by their own abilities usually don't whine about being underprivileged.

Pay attention to some of her posts in which she describes some of the events in her life that have to do with male relatives and an ex-boyfriend. These are the sorts of experiences that tend to influence how a person is apt to view certain demographics.

And why would you assume she didn't get where she is by her own abilities? Given her life experiences, I wouldn't expect her to take the sordid sort of shortcut you're implying.

 

[red_elk]

I'm pretty open about how I don't go around hounding women. I have no interest in looking for sex from hot women. I'm not horny and I look for something more than just "hotness." There is nothing dishonest about that, and there is absolutely nothing creepy about not being sex-crazed.

There's nothing wrong about wanting sex. But by creepy behavior women mean not only direct harassment, but also the situation when guy is too shy to approach and oogling her from safe distance.
Edit: Not implying that you do that, just saying that woman may still consider you a creep even when you don't hound and don't even approach or say anything to her.

And why would you assume she didn't get where she is by her own abilities? Given her life experiences, I wouldn't expect her to take the sordid sort of shortcut you're implying.

I did the opposite of assuming anything. What you mean by the sordid sort of shortcut by the way, a marriage with wealthy man?

Pay attention to some of her posts in which she describes some of the events in her life that have to do with male relatives and an ex-boyfriend. These are the sorts of experiences that tend to influence how a person is apt to view certain demographics.

Not talking about particular people now, just a general thought. If a woman had traumatizing experience, it's understandable that she may despise or hate men for a while after that. But it's never normal, it is a pathology, consequence of trauma which may require external help to get back to normal.

It's also never normal to make derogatory generalized statements about group of people, be it Blacks or Whites, Muslims or atheists, men or women. If someone is saying men are abusers or predators, it's not different from saying Blacks are inferior or Muslims are terrorists.

 

[Farm Boy]

Agreed. There is a difference between having no interest in looking for sex with hot women, and having no interest in sex with hot women. There's also never been anyone, to my knowledge, who constrained their interest in sex with women by adding "but not with hot women."

Hehehe. "Hot" literally stands in for "sexually attractive" near as I can tell. Surface level valuations are surface level, but one can definitely act hot, or have a hot attitude, or do something hot, or have a hot accent, the list goes on. What people think is hot differs pretty wildly. What I think is hot has drifted over time.

 

[rah]

Yeah, hot/attractive can mean many things. As I approach 65, hot is a soft couch with a golf tournament on TV on a lazy weekend afternoon.

 

[Valka D'Ur]

I did the opposite of assuming anything. What you mean by the sordid sort of shortcut by the way, a marriage with wealthy man?

Oh, please. Some women might marry the man in order to secure a job, but most men who demand sex in return for jobs/promotions don't want to take it as far as marriage. Google the term "casting couch" if you really don't understand what I mean.

Musing that Mary didn't get where she is by her own abilities is like saying she slept her way into it (or made some other deal), and that's disgusting. She's mentioned various life experiences on three forums where both of us are members, and her posts are consistent. She's not lying, and I consider her a moral, ethical person who would never do what your post seems to imply. An apology to her would be appropriate.

It's also never normal to make derogatory generalized statements about group of people, be it Blacks or Whites, Muslims or atheists, men or women. If someone is saying men are abusers or predators, it's not different from saying Blacks are inferior or Muslims are terrorists.

Of course it's normal behavior; most people do that about whatever group of people they don't like, for whatever reason. That doesn't make it accurate or good or positive, but given what appears to be human nature, it is a normal thing to do.

Outgrowing that kind of behavior is something that it would be nice if it became the "new normal". But there are a lot of other behaviors that need to change before perceptions can change.

 

[red_elk]

Oh, please. Some women might marry the man in order to secure a job, but most men who demand sex in return for jobs/promotions don't want to take it as far as marriage. Google the term "casting couch" if you really don't understand what I mean.

Musing that Mary didn't get where she is by her own abilities is like saying she slept her way into it (or made some other deal), and that's disgusting. She's mentioned various life experiences on three forums where both of us are members, and her posts are consistent. She's not lying, and I consider her a moral, ethical person who would never do what your post seems to imply. An apology to her would be appropriate.

Now you are going too far in your assumptions about me.
I never suggested directly or indirectly, that Mary slept her way into whatever job or position she is now. Neither I suggested she was lying about her life experiences.
If you think I suggested anything like this, please quote my post where I did that.

Of course it's normal behavior; most people do that about whatever group of people they don't like, for whatever reason. That doesn't make it accurate or good or positive, but given what appears to be human nature, it is a normal thing to do.

Outgrowing that kind of behavior is something that it would be nice if it became the "new normal". But there are a lot of other behaviors that need to change before perceptions can change.

Just to clarify your position - do you think making sexist statements about women is a normal behavior?
Because I don't think it is.

 

[inthesomeday]

It is super normal. Men do it all the time, constantly. In every conceivable environment, no matter how inappropriate it ideally ought to be thought of as. From the very tippy top of the political establishment to union backrooms.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

So normal that it is like water to fish.

 

[Valka D'Ur]

Now you are going too far in your assumptions about me.
I never suggested directly or indirectly, that Mary slept her way into whatever job or position she is now. Neither I suggested she was lying about her life experiences.
If you think I suggested anything like this, please quote my post where I did that.

What other conclusion would you expect from your post where you expressed skepticism that she got where she is by her own abilities? You said:

I wouldn't readily assume that, talking about white American. Besides, people who got somewhere by their own abilities usually don't whine about being underprivileged.

The only other possibility might be that Mary's place of employment has a gender quota system, but from what she's mentioned about her colleagues being mostly male, that doesn't seem to be the case.

Just to clarify your position - do you think making sexist statements about women is a normal behavior?
Because I don't think it is.

You're using the word "normal" to mean "good." I'm using the word "normal" to mean "usual behavior" or "behavior engaged in by many/most people".

Making sexist statements about women is not good. But it is normal behavior for many people to do, and that's why we're having this conversation - because we'd like it to not be a normal behavior.

BTW, I'm not excluding women from sexist assumptions/statements about other women. I've experienced being on the wrong end of the assumptions in some of the groups or organizations I've belonged to, when some married/committed women assumed that because I was single/unattached, I was automatically after their husband/partner. After they started thinking that I was moving toward a committed relationship with my boyfriend, their attitude thawed somewhat - they figured that because I was "with" someone, I was no longer a threat to them.

I don't consider their assumptions rational, but at least I was able to figure it out. In my case, a conversation about a book or a game of D&D is just a conversation about a book or a game of D&D.

 

[red_elk]

What other conclusion would you expect from your post where you expressed skepticism that she got where she is by her own abilities?

I know a number of people, men and women who didn't get where they are by their own abilities. Some of them inherited property, other were helped by their parents to get job and education. Third married to young student who made successful career soon after. Why "sleeping through" is the only thing which came to your mind is beyond me.

You're using the word "normal" to mean "good." I'm using the word "normal" to mean "usual behavior" or "behavior engaged in by many/most people".

But it was clear what I meant by "normal". Your reply was irrelevant to my post then.