Nero04: Skipping some levels? It's training day

[CommandoBob]

Here is where we are right now:
Science: Republic 3 turns
Treasury: 207 gold, +1 gpt; 1.6.3
Trade: -
Cities:

• Madrid (5): grows in 2 turns, settler in 6 turns, culture expansion in 397 turns.
• Barcelona (7): grows in 17, swordsman in 4 turns, 0 culture.
• Seville (5): grows in 1, swordsman in 2, 0 culture.
• Toledo (6): grows in 19, swordsman in 9, 0 culture.
• Ivory City (4): grows in 2, swordsman in 4, 0 culture.
• Salamanca (4): grows in 6, swordsman in 7, 0 culture.
• Murcia (2): grows in 7, swordsman in 3, 0 culture.
• Valencia (1): grows in 14, granary in 54, 0 culture.
• Zaragoza (2): grows in 7, worker in 2, 0 culture.
• Pamplona (1): grows in 10, worker in 10, 0 culture.
• Vitoria (1): grows in 5, temple in 25, 0 culture.
• Santander (1): grows in 2, barracks in 32, 0 culture.
• Jaen (1): grows in 8, temple in 28, 0 culture.
• Logrono (1): grows in 19, barracks in 39, 0 culture.

Military:

• 04 Archers, 0 in production
• 14 Swordsman, 6 in production
• 11 Warriors (obsolete)
• 14 Workers, 02 in production
• 01 Settlers, 1 in production
• 02 Slaves

Total units: 44
Allowed units: 56
Army Support Cost: 0 gpt

Vikings: 439 gold, 8 cities, up Mathematics, Map Making and Horseback Riding
English: 33 gold, 8 cities, up Map Making and Horseback Riding

Rambling thoughts

I do not think we are ready to declare war on the Vikings just yet. Almost, but we need to get our units in place. And it would be nice to get England to help also.

We have 14 Swordsman, about half are veteran.
We have 11 Warriors we could promote to Swords. The cost is 40 gold each. To promote all of them is 440 gold and we have only 207 in the bank. Ouch!

As I remember, once we switch to Republic each unit now costs 1gpt. Which means -44 gpt from our treasury. Income goes up and should bring in at least 44 gpt, but it may not. We have 41 citizens.

We are Religious, so only one turn of anarchy changing from despotism to republic.

We trade Republic for everything we can get. Begin with the Vikings and then the English.

Once we get Republic we need six techs to leave the Ancient Age. Three of them (Mathematics, Map Making and Horseback Riding) we can get from trading, leaving only three to learn: Polytheism, Construction and Currency.

Plans

Some of HawkChieftain's builds were placeholders. I may change some of them.

I will play until we learn Republic. I will trade that as best I can and then we can discuss what to learn next.

No war with the Vikings this turnset.

 

[CommandoBob]

Turn log for the first three turns until Republic is discovered:


[IBT 290 BC]
MM Valencia: Do not need to work the incense tile to get incense. Work the roaded grassland instead. City grows in 7 turns, not 14. Not sure about granary; need more input.
Santander: not sure about Barracks, but it on the front line and could heal troops. Will discuss.
Vitoria might flip, according to MapStat, but having 3 units in the city will make it flip-proof for a while.
Drop luxuries to 20%, gives +8 gpt.
Worker between Seville and Zaragoza chopping, due in 8, changed to road, due in 6.
Logrono Barracks -> Temple, due in 29.
Wake some sleeping military units.

Babylon completes the Great Wall in Babylon.

1 270 BC

Worker begins road to connect Santander to Pamplona. After road will irrigate.
Worker west of Pamplona irrigates desert.
Worker west of Vitoria finishes irrigation, begins road.

Trading
Nothing

​

Seville Sword -> Sword, 6 turns.
Zaragoza Worker -> Worker, 10 turns.

[IBT]


2 250 BC

New Sword in Seville, fortify.
Warrior in Seville to Toledo to upgrade.
New Worker Zaragoza, west to make road to Pamplona.
WorkerToToledo south to make road to Pamplona

Trading
​

[IBT]
Barbarians near Valencia
We learn Republic. Our choices Map Making (8), Mathematics (6), Horseback Riding (4) and Polytheism (9). Select Polytheism for now.
Did not change governments yet.

Murcia Sword -> Sword, 15 turns.

3 230 BC

WorkerToToledo makes road.
Settler arrives in Pamplona.
Warrior arrives in Toledo.
Wake Archer near Valencia to take care of Barbarian.

Trading
Ragnar wants Republic. Is willing to trade Map Making, Mathematics, Horseback Riding (all his techs), World Map and 435 gold (all) for Republic. Seems too good to be true!
I take it.
Ragnar has Construction, but is not willing to trade for it.
Sell Math to England for WM and 35 gold (all).
Expanded World Map shows us the English city of Liverpool.

​

 

[CommandoBob]

Here are our choices of techs in the Ancient Times:

We are still in Despotism. I would expect the research times to be less in Republic. Even so, what do we learn next?

Ragnar has Construction and got Republic from us. England does not have Republic, but could get it from the Vikings. Neither one has contact with any other civs.

We could learn Polytheism and hope that Ragnar is researching Currency. Then we could trade Poly for either Construction or Currency or maybe both.

We could learn Currency and trade it for Construction, unless Ragnar is researching it too.

The key question seems to be this: now that he has Republic will Ragnar attempt to learn Monarchy? If he does, then he is probably learning Poly right now, so we can get to Currency before he does. If he does not, he (and we) still need to learn Poly to enter the Middle Ages, so he might be researching that anyway.

Or we could be sneaky. We change governments, learn Poly and try to trade it for Construction. After the trade, we research Currency and declare war on the Vikings, hopefully with English help. Ragnar has a two front war and we enter the Middle Ages and Ragnar enters Valhala.

I have ideas, but I need guidance.

 

[nerovats]

In future it might be better to play until trading not until after trading.

I don't think an AI will trade construction for polytheism. Most likely the AI will go for either poly or construction.
Now we have Map Making which is great, and the gold to upgrade AND buy stuf.
Civassist will let you play with different governments and locations of palace and FP, I think it's in the government tab.

There's probably another benefit of trading republic to Vikings...

No guts no glory

 

[Hawk Chieftain]

I think we should research Currency. I agree with nerovats that the AI will probably go for Poly or Construction. Plus, after we get Currency, we can start building Marketplaces to get more gold.
On our coastal cities, let's start building galleys and harbors. We need to make contact with other civs before the Viks & English do. We can trade our techs for gold or GPT, and upgrade the Warriors.

 

[CommandoBob]

We will learn to play with money.

We have one turn of anarchy to become the Republic of Spain.

I am planning to send our warriors to cities with barracks to upgrade to Swords. This will not all be done on one turn, but I hope to get it done by the end of my turns, if our economy improves enough. We have 11 warriors.

 

[CommandoBob]

((( Turns 1 to 3 posted earlier )))

[IBT 230]
*** out of game discussion ***
Asked for help on research. Team decides to go for Currency.
*** end of out of game discussion ***

We make the change from Polytheism to Currency.
We have a revolution to get to Republic.
Barbarian activity near Valencia.
Madrid (6), Barcelona (7), Seville (6), Toledo (6), Ivory City (5), Salamanca (4) and Santander (2) have lost all productivity, due to demonstrations and general unrest.
Which government do we want? Republic. (Odd, that was quick. The anarchy was limited to the IBT.)

Barracks Built:
Barcelona, Toledo, Murcia

Barracks being built:
Santander

4 210 BC

Our income is now -26 gpt. We have 47 units and they are -47gpt.
Seven cities had hissy fits when we went into Anarchy in the IBT. Each city had some unhappy people, but in no case were there enough for civil disorder. I think I will just grit my teeth and let them self-adjust.
Currency is 7 turns away.

England is sending a Spear/Settler combo towards Santander, probably heading to our east coast. An English warrior is due south of Santander.
Move SwordsmanToPurpleDot southeast, so he is south west of Santander.
Move Sword to SwordsmanToPurpleDot's old location.
Hope that the English warrior will move west, out of Spain. If so, move unit from Santander due south to complete the block.

Move warrior in woods northwest of Zaragoza west to grassland.
Upgrade vet warrior in Toledo.
SecondEnglishWorker finished irrigating, now begins road.

Archer in woods near Viking land moves northeast, to keep tabs on Viking Sword/Settler combo.

Regular archer near Valencia attacks horsie-barb, wins, promotes.
Warrior in Logrono moves to protect worker west of Valencia from warrior-barb.
Archer with WorkerToToledo moves into Pamplona.
Vet sword from Murcia to Vitoria.
Reg sword from Vitoria exchanges worker protection duties with vet sword.
In Pamplona, wake vet sword, fortify reg sword.
Wake reg warrior in Murcia.

Trading
​

[IBT]
All of our cities have had order restored. But our gold situation has become slightly worse, moving to -27gpt and 49 units.
Fiddle with the sliders. To get positive cash flow, Currency takes 11 turns from now, instead of 6.
Will examine next turn, after all our cities have been productive under Republic for one full turn.

Warrior-barb attacked fortified warrior in Valencia and lost.
English warrior south of Santander moved west and joined Settler stack that moved north. Three Orange units on a hill, 2SW of Santander.

5 190 BC

Wake vet Archer in Santander and move south.
Worker moves adjacent to Jaen, to irrigate and road. Reg sword moves with him.
In Ivory City, new reg sword fortifies and releases warrior to go upgrade. Warrior heads to Barcelona.
Worker moves to grassland north of Logrono to mine and road.
Archer shadowing Viking Settler moves west.
Worker moves from roaded flood plain to grassland norhtwest of Santander to mine and road.
Wake reg sword in Jaen and send to Vitoria for guard duty.
Send archer and two vet swords in Pamplona to hill 2E of Birka. Leave reg sword (fortified) and settler.
Move vet sword from Barcelona to Madrid. Wake one reg warrior in Madrid and move to Barcelona.
Vet sword from Toledo heads south to Viking land.
Archer head to barb-camp near Valencia.
Warrior back to Logrono.
Auto move FirstEnglishWorker and another worker to be south of Madrid. Until our border expands in the north, no more improvements needed. Two turns to arrive.

Trading
Rangar is Annoyed with us. Elizabeth is Polite.
​

[IBT]
Viking settler pair moves adjacent to Birka.
English settler pair move NW to flank our block.

6 170 BC

Still running with a negative economy.
Currency 5 turns away. Remember that in Depotism, Currency was a 12 turn project, here it (was) only.
Reduce science to 30% and we get Currency in 9 turns and have +6gpt.
Will not upgrade reg warriors, but will place them in cities with barracks.

Move archer on hill near Birka southwest to extend block.
Leave swords in place on hill near Birka.
Worker mines grassland at Santander.
Worker completes road west of Zaragoza, moves west adjacent to Pamplona for more roadwork.
WorkerToToledo mines roaded grassland NE of Pamplona.
Req warrior moves to Toledo.
Worker roads irrigated desert W of Pamplona.
Worker completes mine east of Logrono, moves to help chop. Five turns left, will begin chopping with four turns left, to finish chop in two turns.
Worker starts mining north of Logrono.
Vet Archer attacks barb-camp, wins, get 25 gold, but no promotion.

Not sure what to do with SecondSettler (Madrid). Looked at dot map from Post #120. Two city sites on Ring1 around capital not yet built, neither one great sites.
SecondSettler heads NW to Yellow2 on that dotmap.


Trading
Ragnar is Cautious, Elizabeth still Polite. But still no trades.
These two have an ROP in place. Will try to get one with England when it expires.
​

[IBT]
English settler pair heads south.
Viking settler pair heads east.

7 150 BC

Workers arrive south of Madrid and begin irrigating flood plain.
SecondSettler moves onto Yellow2.
Reg sword arrives in Vitoria, fortifies and releases vet sword from guard duty.
Worker begins road to connect Pamplona to Zaragoza.
Road completed in forest north of Zaragoza. Worker moves northeast to mined grassland to build road and connect Zaragoza to Seville.
Worker makes road on mined grassland northeast of Logrono.
Worker helps with chop southeast of Logrono, to add to Temple.
Let barb-killing archer heal.
Move sword north of Santander north on road and then west to desert, with the goal of moving west next turn and blocking Viking settler from heading to our east coast.
Archer southwest of Birka, in forest, head to mountain near Stavanger to be a snoop.
Worker south of Murcia to south of Vitoria. Will complete the Southern Loop and connect to Pamplona.
Worker than completed chop at Murcia, irrigates.
New vet sword from Toledo heads south.
Wake warrior in Madrid and send to Barcelona for future upgrade.

Trading
​

[IBT]
Vikings want to swap World Maps. No.
Viking settler pair moves southeast.
English settler pair moves southeast.

8 130 BC

Worker makes road to connect Seville to Zaragoza.
Move sword west to grassland for a blocking action that may no longer be needed.
Move worker to same tile.
Archer northwest to mountain and spypost.
SecondSettler founds city of Valladolid on Yellow2. Set it to making a galley in 15 turns, will grow in 10.
Archer heals some more.
Salamanca builds reg sword, it fortifies. Wake reg warrior and send towards Toledo. Both Toledo and Barcelona are three turns away and Toledo is closer to the Vikings.
New sword from Seville heads to Valencia to swap with reg warrior, a three turn trip.

Trading
Nothing.
​

[IBT]
Feels like too many workers improving, not enough connecting roads to the front lines.
Viking settler pair move southeast.
English settler pair reverse course and move northwest.

9 110 BC

Worker completes road in hills NE,E of Madrid. Moves southeeast to irrigate desert.
Workers southeast of Logrono build mine.
Sword moves adjacent to Valencia.
Warrior in Valencia heads west, towards Toledo for upgrade.
Fully healed vet Archer heads south to get on a road.
Worker in desert west of Pamplona moves south into unclaimed land to build road for the Southern Loop.
Move SwordsmanToPurpleDot southwest to coastal hill. Realize that Viking settler could be heading here.
Wake sword in Santander to move southwest to fill gap in the block line.
Worker on grassland begins roading the Southern Loop.
Worker on hill northeast of Seville moves southwest, across river. Next turn will move southwest again to build road in that desert tile, which will reduce travel time from Toledo to Seville from two turns to one.

Trading
​

[IBT]
Viking settler heads southwest.
English settler heads north.

10 90 BC

Worker south of Madrid moves southeast to irrigate flood plain.
FirstEnglishWorker moves south to build irrigate desert.
Reg warrior arrives in Toledo from Salamanca.
New reg sword in Ivory City heads to Valladolid.
Vet sword in Barcelona heads to Vitoria.
SecondEnglishWorker finishes irrigating south of Vitoria, moves southeast.
Worker in desert begins his part of the Southern Loop.
Move archer north into Santander.
Road completed to connect Pamplona to Zaragoza. Worker move to Santander to begin road to connect to front line troops.
Reg sword arrives in Valencia and fortifies.
Vet archer moves south, heading to Logrono for guard duty until reg sword arrives from Seville, several turns from now.
Worker makes road to connect Jaen to rest of the Spanish Empire.
Move both warriors in Logrono towards Toledo.
Move worker northeast of Logrono to coastal grassland between Logrono and Seville to build mine.
New worker from Zaragoza moves west, heading towards the front line.

Trading
Ragnar not willing to discuss terms on Construction.
​

[IBT]

End of Turnset Twelve Stats:

Science: Currency 4 turns
Treasury: 663 gold, +11 gpt, 5.3.2
Trade: -
Cities:

• Madrid (7): grows in 6 turns, settler in 6 turns, culture expansion in 388 turns.
• Barcelona (7): grows in 8, vet swordsman in 3 turns, 0 culture.
• Seville (7): grows in 11, reg swordsman in 3, 0 culture.
• Toledo (7): grows in 9, vet swordsman in 3, 0 culture.
• Ivory City (5): grows in 3, reg swordsman in 5, 0 culture.
• Salamanca (5): grows in 17, reg swordsman in 4, 0 culture.
• Murcia (3): grows in 7, vet swordsman in 2, 0 culture.
• Valencia (2): grows in 7, granary in 45, 0 culture.
• Zaragoza (2): grows in 10, worker in 1, 0 culture.
• Pamplona (1): grows in 10, worker in 10, 0 culture.
• Vitoria (2): grows in 5, temple in 5, 0 culture.
• Santander (3): grows in 10, barracks in 23, 0 culture.
• Jaen (2): grows in 7, temple in 19, 0 culture.
• Logrono (2): grows in 10, temple in 10, 0 culture.
• Valladolid (1): grows in 8, galley in 13, 0 culture.

Military:

• 04 Archers, 0 in production
• 24 Swordsman, 6 in production
• 10 Warriors (obsolete)
• 16 Workers, 02 in production
• 01 Settlers, 1 in production
• 00 Galleys, 1 in production
• 02 Slaves

Total units: 55 Allowed units: 0 Army Support Cost: 55 gpt

Vikings: 25 gold, 10 cities, up Construction
English: 19 gold, 12 cities, even on tech

And the save is >here<.

 

[CommandoBob]

With the team’s help, we are learning currency. We are making money and have happy people.

We have ten warriors to upgrade to swordsman. This will cost 400 gold. We had one veteran warrior and he is already upgraded. These ten are only regular. Two of them are on their way to a city with a barracks; the others are already in cities that have barracks.

We have some cities making regular swords. I tried to use these for guard duty. Since we are in Republic, we do not need units in cities to keep people happy. Even so, I have kept or plan to keep one city in each city just in case they are needed. This may not be the best thing to do.

I have moved units toward the Vikings. Our veterans are in Vitoria and clustered around Santander. I have workers heading towards the front lines to build roads for our units to use when we conquer.


Need to discuss:

City garrisons
When to upgrade warriors
Invasion plans (attacks, cities to keep or raze, where to put FP, etc.)
What to research after Currency.

 

[Hawk Chieftain]

I think keeping one garrison in each city is good. I think we could upgrade our Warriors during my turn set, we have enough gold to do this. We need to make contact with other civs, so that we can trade for Poly & Construction. I think we should switch the coastal cities to Galleys, then search out the other civs. We won't be able to do this before we have researched Currency, so I'll start on Construction, then try to trade for it once we have contact with other civs. OK?

 

[CommandoBob]

We need to make contact with other civs, so that we can trade for Poly & Construction. I think we should switch the coastal cities to Galleys, then search out the other civs. We won't be able to do this before we have researched Currency, so I'll start on Construction, then try to trade for it once we have contact with other civs. OK?

Well, not quite.

Currency is only four turns away. We will learn it before we get a galley built, much less across the waters to a new land.

With Currency and some cash, we might (might) be able to get Construction from Ragnar. Then all we need is Poly to enter the Middle Ages.

I do agree that we need galleys to find the New World. We have only three coastal cities, Salamanca, Valencia and Valladolid. Swords and galleys cost the same, so Salamanca could have a galley ready in four turns instead of a regular sword. Valladolid is building a galley, due in 13 turns. Valencia is coastal, but is netting one shield per turn.

We need galleys (not sure how many, only some suicide runs will tell) to find the New World. We need them regardless of how the trading goes with Ragnar. So I think switching Salamanca to make galleys instead of swords is a good thing to do.

After we get Currency, I think we should research Poly, since we have a possible chance to trade for Construction. I would research Poly at minimum science, since we assume that both the Viking and English are learning it also. We expect one of them to learn it before we do. In fact, since we do expect one of them to learn it before we do, we could delay trading Currency until someone did learn Poly (England, we hope). If need be, we could research Poly in five turns or so, if we want to run at negative gpt.

We could delay trading Currency. I am not sure that we should delay trading Currency.

I would upgrade our units after we have learned Currency and tried to acquire Construciton/Poly.

A great deal appears to depend on Ragnar willingness to trade Currency for Construction. Which we will not know until we can trade Currency for Construction.

 

[nerovats]

No time to read it all now, nor check save, but some quick remarks, not saying right or wrong:
-why keep a unit in every city
-galleys can also be rushed
-why drop science to 30%
-why build reg swords and have no cats
-we already have 26 swords why upgrade 10 reg warriors
-how long before vikings get beserks

 

[CommandoBob]

No time to read it all now, nor check save, but some quick remarks, not saying right or wrong:
-why keep a unit in every city

For me, just how I play.

-galleys can also be rushed

Yes, but we have not made a habit of rushing or whipping production.

-why drop science to 30%

I dropped science to 30% because we were running -26gpt when science at 60%. I considered leaving science at 60%, but when I was looking for dotmaps I saw this -

Now we have Map Making which is great, and the gold to upgrade AND buy stuf.

- and I changed the science to 30%.

-why build reg swords and have no cats

My error. It never occured to me to change from swords to cats.

-we already have 26 swords why upgrade 10 reg warriors

I wondererd about the wisdom of upgrading the warriors. I was waiting on the upgrade to keep our gold supply as high as possible. I assumed that Ragnar might want gold and Currency for Construction. Also, not sure how many swords needed to take care of the Vikings. But we could disband the warriors for 50 shields someplace.

-how long before vikings get beserks

I am not sure, but it is too soon.

 

[Hawk Chieftain]

Beserks replace Longbowman, so they won't get them until Invention.
During my turn set, I'll switch Swords to Cats, and rush Galleys. I'll also raise the science back up. OK?

 

[CommandoBob]

Beserks replace Longbowman, so they won't get them until Invention.
During my turn set, I'll switch Swords to Cats, and rush Galleys. I'll also raise the science back up. OK?

We have 26 swords now, scatttered through out the Empire. In Barcelona and Toledo, switch to Cats and disband the reg warriors to help rush. Barcelona has 4 warriors, Toledo has 3, I think. Murcia has one and two more are on their way to Toledo. This gives veteran catapults quickly and reduces our military upkeep, which in turn helps our gold per turn.

Making cats is easy. What we need to decide is how many do we need.

The same is true on galleys, how many do we need? For now I would guess three, until we lose some.

I am not sure which is of greater value at this point in the game, getting gold or getting science. I know there is a balance between these two and the balance point changes throughout the game. We have more gold than the Vikings and English combined, but is that enough for upgrades and buying techs? Ragnar is not willing to sell us Construction at any price.

I am not sure that a higher science rate and negative gold per turn is what we need right now. I am not greatly opposed to the idea; I am merely not sure about it.

I do think we need to plan our attack on Ragnar. If we take enough cities, he will offer tech for peace; and then remove him later. (This is an idea worthy of some discussion; it is not a plan of things to do.)

 

[Hawk Chieftain]

I've got the save. I hope to play either tonight or tomorrow.
I think we should contact other civs before we attack Vikings.

 

[CommandoBob]

I've got the save. I hope to play either tonight or tomorrow.
I think we should contact other civs before we attack Vikings.

We need to contact other civs; if nothing else it would drop research costs. And we could sell contact with the English and Vikings to our new friends, or swap contacts anyway.

Right now we probably have the military advantage over the Vikings; 26 swords and some catapults in the near future. If we could not eliminate them we could severly hurt them. We could probably ask for techs as part of a peac treaty. And all this would happen before they could produce a single beserk.

I think with all 26 swords and a good plan we could easily capture half of the Viking cities in 2 to 3 turnsets, if not more and sooner.

If we do attack them soon, we can delay their entry to the MA. If we rid the land mass of them, they will possibly respawn, and then they can pester other people with their UU.

But we need their land, and England's too, to make big productive cities that can make spaceship parts. We are a long way from that goal.

 

[nerovats]

Why would you disband swords?
There´s no such thing as vet cats.
We won´t need a lot of galleys for now, as we just want to contact the other AI. When we want to transfer troops we need more of them. 2 or 3 should do for now.

 

[CommandoBob]

Why would you disband swords?
There´s no such thing as vet cats.

Swords? I should have said warriors.

No vet cats. My bad. I have rarely built catapults. But that does mean that any city can build them and they are all equal, unlike other military units.

 

[gmaharriet]

I have rarely built catapults. But that does mean that any city can build them and they are all equal, unlike other military units.

Lurker's CommentYes, all types of artillery units are equal, whether built in a rax town or not.

 

[nerovats]

That's why most people assign specific cities to building cats, that way the city won't need a barracks. Building cats will greatly assist you in war, lateron when you get artillery you'll be almost invincable, when used properly.