New Beta Version - 1-11 (1/11)

[SuperNoobCamper]

Immortal difficulty Epic speed.
Playing as Spain with Imperialism tree so getting a lot of gold on conquering cities is just a part of the game which got me so far ahead.that i'm 6 techs ahead of the closest Assyria and completed imperialism and adopted an ideology before anyone has opened the 3rd policy tree yet.
Over 40K gold were stolen from me till now, counter spies and constabularies cannot do nothing.

Spoiler :

 

[BiteInTheMark]

If you can gain 3 Monopolies by only conquering one City then that's very lucky and therefore situational; also, your legendary resource start probably helped, which is another "buff" to Imperialism you gave yourself here.

Legendary only changes the amount of bonus ressourses and terrain, not really the amount of luxuries you get. Having a science monopoly is still enough to be ahead over rationalism.

Of course there would be a difference in most games (unless you're playing a map like Fractal), since the tall player will want to be more defensive, so he'll settle more inland to avoid having to build a large navy for defense and he won't go on conquering sprees, which tend to capture all those tiny island Cities for strategic reasons.

It is a completly normal communitas map. I dont really care about defensive positions, as long as those positions are the best I can find, I take them, defending them is in almost all cases no problem. The situation would change of course, If you play on a pangäa map, but this is of course the worst situation for comparing the science from Imperialism. I think communitas map is diverse enough to represent a normal situation you can compare.

And again, when adding together the Free Tech you get, the +33% GPP rate for GS, the +25% yields from GS and the fact that you can Faith-buy GS, you have a lot of science that is not accounted for in your analysis, in addition to the numbers being generated in a scenario that is tailored toward Imperialism.

And it seems you didnt read carefully enough. The gap in science might not look as big, but what matters is the cost you have to pay for that "small" gap.
The growth for rationalism cities is 30% slower.
The gold income is 41% lower.
The production is 14% slower
Producing units and upgrading them is more expensive
And the science output from Imperialism is still higher....
Btw.... if I had picked To the Glory of Gods, I could purchase Great scientists too, those would be only 9% weaker than Rationalism Great Scientist, while I generate each turn 14% more science per turn.
In the end, rationalism and imperialism should be very similiar in science, while rationalism is in nearly all other aspects inferior. Should it be really like that? The war branch beeing able to compete with the pure science branch in science?

Ive made another comparison, this time with "peaceful" setup, 7 cities (no puppets) I would be able to settle without war and reach 2 monopolies, science and production.

I want to mention, that at the moment ive made this comparison, a golden age was happening. So rationalism got the temporary +10% science bonus. Without that, it would look worse for rationalism. The fact, that I only have +9 gold income while focusing science with rationalism let me ask, what would happen, if the golden age end, which give me more gold. Possibly an even greater drop in science cause I cant affort working most scientists anymore.

 

[crdvis16]

Legendary only changes the amount of bonus ressourses and terrain, not really the amount of luxuries you get. Having a science monopoly is still enough to be ahead over rationalism.


It is a completly normal communitas map. I dont really care about defensive positions, as long as those positions are the best I can find, I take them, defending them is in almost all cases no problem. The situation would change of course, If you play on a pangäa map, but this is of course the worst situation for comparing the science from Imperialism. I think communitas map is diverse enough to represent a normal situation you can compare.


And it seems you didnt read carefully enough. The gap in science might not look as big, but what matters is the cost you have to pay for that "small" gap.
The growth for rationalism cities is 30% slower.
The gold income is 41% lower.
The production is 14% slower
Producing units and upgrading them is more expensive
And the science output from Imperialism is still higher....
Btw.... if I had picked To the Glory of Gods, I could purchase Great scientists too, those would be only 9% weaker than Rationalism Great Scientist, while I generate each turn 14% more science per turn.
In the end, rationalism and imperialism should be very similiar in science, while rationalism is in nearly all other aspects inferior. Should it be really like that? The war branch beeing able to compete with the pure science branch in science?

Ive made another comparison, this time with "peaceful" setup, 7 cities I would be able to settle without war and reach 2 monopolies, science and production.

I would think rationalism has its place in tall/small empires who don't have many (or any) puppets. Even if you have some coast/ocean tiles in that kind of empire I would think Rationalism would be best. Civs that naturally go Tradition-Artistry tend to end up Rationalism and I think that's the right choice.

 

[civplayer33]

It is a completly normal communitas map. I dont really care about defensive positions, as long as those positions are the best I can find, I take them, defending them is in almost all cases no problem.

If you don't care about defense then you need to increase your difficulty; otherwise this is yet another thing that is skewed in your analysis...

And it seems you didnt read carefully enough. The gap in science might not look as big, but what matters is the cost you have to pay for that "small" gap.
The growth for rationalism cities is 30% slower.
The gold income is 41% lower.
The production is 14% slower
Producing units and upgrading them is more expensive
And the science output from Imperialism is still higher....
Btw.... if I had picked To the Glory of Gods, I could purchase Great scientists too, those would be only 9% weaker than Rationalism Great Scientist, while I generate each turn 14% more science per turn.
In the end, rationalism and imperialism should be very similiar in science, while rationalism is in nearly all other aspects inferior. Should it be really like that? The war branch beeing able to compete with the pure science branch in science?

Ive made another comparison, this time with "peaceful" setup, 7 cities (no puppets) I would be able to settle without war and reach 2 monopolies, science and production.

So you're accusing me of not accounting for opportunity cost while talking about tailoring your Religion such that you can play like having picked Rationalism (Faith-buying GS) without picking Rationalism? And this is after you just happen to spawn on a Science-Monopoly, of course, because that's all there is, apparently...

I don't think you're interested in a good-faith discussion and thus there's no way that I can even trust your numbers; however, I'm not interested in having another pointless debate on a game-forum, so I will not reply about his issue further. As someone else pointed out, this should be discussed in General Balance anyway and not here.

 

[SuperNoobCamper]

Spain on Terra Standard size Epic speed Immortal difficulty game ended at Turn 451 at 1850AD cultural victory.
A couple of interesting things happened this match.

• I won a cultural victory before anyone could adopt an ideology, i was not even trying to win a CV it just happened when i found i was getting influence with everyone even when i was sanctioned on the WC.
  
• The AI waged endless joint wars in the renaissance and medieval era when i was pushing my way to the top of the score board but surprisingly it did not try declaring war on me after i ran away in the industrial era at all even when i was culturally dominant on 4 civs and influential with two, maybe it has something with being 25 techs and a ful 8 policies deep in order ahead of the closest AI.
• To the glory of good is ridiculously good, getting a great person of your choice every 7 turns 5 on standard speed is so powerful and the faith cost for the first two or 3 of every type is so cheap that it feels like it's free .... i think it could see a nerf like purchases cost 10% more starting in the industrial era and +10% for every era after that ?
• Spies and counter spies interaction is just binary and gold theft is the most annoying part of it, pretty much going to disable espionage till the next version with G's modification.
• Heavy tribute yields even for a progress civilization is still very good, getting 1500 in the mid/late game is worth more than a wonder, it also boosts the production of projects you cannot use engineers for their instant yields to hurry I tributed 3 to finish the Citizen earth protocol which could have taken 20 turns.

 

[JamesNinelives]

• I won a cultural victory before anyone could adopt an ideology

Don't you need 2 tier 3 ideology tenets to win a cultural victory?

 

[cerk]

I think he meant the AI

 

[SuperNoobCamper]

maybe it has something with being 25 techs and a ful 8 policies deep in order ahead of the closest AI.

Don't you need 2 tier 3 ideology tenets to win a cultural victory?

 

[CppMaster]

@Gazebo when can we expect a new version?

 

[Blue Ghost]

On the latest version, I’m still seeing very few AIs selecting Progress. Medieval policy selection is a lot more balanced than before though.

 

[Dolen2]

any way I can download previous versions for tests?

 

[Acaerus]

I don`t know. imho there is something very wrong with AI. It`s like they are in 1 team right after i wage a single victorious war. They declare war on me one after another and i think warmonger penalties don`t even count that i was in a defensive war and i did not started the agression. So as i said in 100% of my games it`s me vs team of AIs after single war.

 

[General_Drax]

Same for me. In this version I prefer by far heavy warmongering. Take Huns or Aztec and just fight vs all of them.

Current game: I'm trying a progress/fealty Israel. I did not declare vs anyone and mind my own businness. Just America and Denmark (both Authority) are on my doors so it's fine that they try to conquer (and I razed two of them cities) but why China and Germany (by far the top dog due to all CS allies) from the other side of the world DoW me and they are Tradition !

Come on.

 

[JamesNinelives]

I don`t know. imho there is something very wrong with AI. It`s like they are in 1 team right after i wage a single victorious war. They declare war on me one after another and i think warmonger penalties don`t even count that i was in a defensive war and i did not started the agression. So as i said in 100% of my games it`s me vs team of AIs after single war.

Yep, I think this has been noted and should be better in the next version!

 

[Heinz_Guderian]

Yeah that is probably the best argument for why this has to be fixed (and why there shouldn't even be possible to think it is adequate the way it works rn): It heavily favors warmongers (as stated above). If people are going to DoW you for no good reason at all, you might as well be the monster the other leaders see you as It is so annoying when you play a peaceful sim city game and people on the other side of the world who you are trading a lot with DoW you and then do nothing at all but still refuse to peace out.

And I know that Recursive said he will fix it, but I mean you have to ventilate this frustration somewhere

 

[Acaerus]

I think there should be some kind of bonus against warmonger penalty when fighting defensive wars. Almost every my playthrough i fight only in wars someone else declared on me. But when i counter attack during same war and take their cities i`m suddenly a monster that tries to put world to an end...Who declared war should be in consideration when counting warmonger penalties after city capture. IMHO...

 

[th3f00l]

I think there should be some kind of bonus against warmonger penalty when fighting defensive wars. Almost every my playthrough i fight only in wars someone else declared on me. But when i counter attack during same war and take their cities i`m suddenly a monster that tries to put world to an end...Who declared war should be in consideration when counting warmonger penalties after city capture. IMHO...

the same here, I never declare a war, but whenever I am in one and fight to defend myself and start taking over cities from whom the war started, the other civilizations begin a massive declaration of war against me. I also think that there should be a system of "cold war", AI often declares war with me or with other AIs that they cannot reach making no battle happen leaving the war score always 0. There should be a type of counter of turns without battles or casualties of units so that civilizations in passive war could declare peace even with war score 0.

 

[Gazebo]

I have to get the many UIs in sync, but this is the WIP changelog. Hoping for release this week:

Changelog
    Major performance improvements
    Tactical revisions and improvements
    Bugfixes for many github issues
    Improved AI build selection, especially when at war
    Diplo AI improvements
    
Religion
    Gameplay
        Bullying - reworked system so that method is on a % scale, with anything above 0% allowing tribute which is x%, where x is your bullying value (so if your bully score is 26%, and CS has 100 gold as max bully value, you'll get 26 gold)
            Reworked mechanics under bullying to be more clear, and more focused on global power and empire proximity
            Should see more bullying in the game, but for less yields each time, so it'll be much less swingy
       City Damage - now clear UI indicators for city CS/RCS, which are separate. Garrisons no longer affect a city's RCS, only it's CS. Also rebalanced defense from buildings etc. so that cities, overall, are tankier but do less damage to units
    Buildings
        Lighthouse - +1 supply
        Harbor - +2 supply (removed +10% from pop)
        Seaport - now +20% from pop for supply (was +10%)
        Customs House - gets resource bonuses from Grocer, loses tourism bonus
        Zoo - gains tourism bonus from trade routes from Customs House
        Defense
            Defense and HP from defensive buildings overhauled
                Less defense total, more HP total
                Reduced RCS bonus for cities from Castle, Arsenal
    Wonders
        Terracotta - bumped construction speed to 25%, bumped culture on kills to +20 (was +10)
        Red Fort - reduced CS city % bonus to 10%
    Civs
        England
            White Tower- reduced spy effectiveness bonus to 10%, reduced instant yields (halved), reduced CS
            SOTL - loses Logistics, gains Breacher promotion for free - CS/RCS improved to compensate
        Mongolia
            Heavy Tribute surrender mechanic gone - now gains +100% tribute yields when tributing, and ignored PtP/alliance/other friends when calculating bully potential
        Spain
            UA - food is back, bby
        Zulu
            UA - removed % bonus to tribute yields
        Celts
            Bran - reduced to 25% RCS (was 50%)
    Policies
        Imperialism
            Martial Law - puppet yield reduction now 20% (to 60%) - was 50%
            Exploitation - reduced science on tiles to +1 (was +2)
        Autocracy
            Tribute - mechanic changed- you now get 25% of tributed yield as culture when you bully (instead of flat amount) - doubles on finisher
        Fealty
            Defense scaler now +1 (was +3)
        Rationalism
            Scaler science now +2% (was +1%)
            Rights of Man - Village gold now +2 (Was +1)
        Statecraft
            Trade Confederacy - now caps at 5 CS (was formerly uncapped)
    Ideologies
        Autocracy
            Total War - 25% easier to bully (was 50%)
            Tyranny - CS influence changes now 10% (was 25%)
    Promotions
        Drill - now +15% CS (was 10%)
        Cover - now +33% (was 25%)
    Units
        Archers/Slingers - now range:1
            RCS of Slinger now 9 (was 8)
        Reduced RCS of all non-mounted, non-siege ranged units (except archers) slightly
        Warrior CS now 8, Pathfinder CS now 6
        Swordsman CS now 17, Longswordsman now 22, Landsknecht now 19
    Quests
        Removed global XP from bully quest
    Religion
        Pantheon
            Fertility - now +2 food/faith (was +2/+1)
            Open Sky - added +1 faith to 2 Plains/Grasslands
            Wisdom - now +1s per 10 followers (was 4)
            Festivals - added +1f to palace
            Ancestor Worship - added +1f to council, removed specialist stuff
            Goddess of Beauty - reduced GA/GE to +2 (was +3)
            Stars and Sky - removed improvement requirement and food
            Earth Mother, +1g becomes +1c
        Founder
            Bumped city scaling cap on all beliefs except COE to 30 (was 20), follower scaling cap to 300 (was 250)
            Council of Elders - now 20 yield from conversion (was 40, typo in text said 60), capped at 20
            
        Enhancers
            Universalism - now called 'Abode of Peace' - removed Missionary Erosion, added minimum CS influence of 30 and CS rewards +20%
            Iconography - added Missionary erosion, removed +15% GP during GA
            Diocese - renamed 'Sacred Calendar' - removed +10c/f in capital/holy city; now +15% GP during GA,
        Follower
            Inspiration - renamed 'Creativity'
        Reformation
            Jesuit - renamed 'Divine Teachings'
            Knowledge Through Devotion - now 'Inspired Works'
    Techs
        Reduced late game tech costs a bit
        Forest Chopping now on Mining
        Chop % bonus to production now on Bronze/Iron working (50% at each tech)
            chop will not provide production unless you have these techs
    Resources
        Silk
            Gold from improvement now +3 (was +2)

 

[JamesNinelives]

I don't really understand why archers having range 1 is going ahead given how many objected to it.

Other than that, most of the changes look pretty good. Not a fan of the impact on jungle chopping, but I've said that already. Lots of good improvements in many areas, particularly looking forward to city combat and religion adjustments. Buffed Terracotta, melee protions and early melee CS should be interesting. Best wishes, Gazebo!

 

[Stalker0]

A lot to unpack. I'll highlight a few areas

I have to get the many UIs in sync, but this is the WIP changelog. Hoping for release this week:

Religion
Gameplay
Bullying - reworked system so that method is on a % scale, with anything above 0% allowing tribute which is x%, where x is your bullying value (so if your bully score is 26%, and CS has 100 gold as max bully value, you'll get 26 gold)
--Seems reasonable, have to see it in play. The biggest thing for me is clarity on what group of X CS units = Y bullying value.

Buildings
Lighthouse - +1 supply
Harbor - +2 supply (removed +10% from pop)
Seaport - now +20% from pop for supply (was +10%)
Customs House - gets resource bonuses from Grocer, loses tourism bonus
Zoo - gains tourism bonus from trade routes from Customs House
--Yay on the supply changes. Honestly the Customs house is a solid building even without the tourism, it doesn't need the grocer yields. That said, if this is to make those yields more attractive that's fine too.

Promotions
Drill - now +15% CS (was 10%)

--WHOA WHOA WHOA!!! Drill and Shock are in very good balance right now, this just makes drill flat out better. No need for this, and no one that I have seen is asking for this. This is the one change in this list that I flat out disagree with.

Units
Archers/Slingers - now range:1
--I do feel like this change is against the grain. There seems a lot more support for cities with 2 range than archers with 1 range.
Swordsman CS now 17, Longswordsman now 22, Landsknecht now 19
--I don't know if this is necessary with all of the other changes that are happening. If cities aren't doing as much RCS, and c bows are weaker, swords may be just fine now.


Religion
--I'm going to translate these below, since it took me a while to understand what the change actually was.
Fertility - now +2 food/faith (was +2/+1)
--22 from shrines, wells, and water mills. +25%Growth
Open Sky - added +1 faith to 2 Plains/Grasslands
--+1 and +1 in City per 2 worked Plains or 2 worked Grassland tiles without Hills or Features. +1 and +3 from Pastures
Wisdom - now +1s per 10 followers (was 4)
--+1 in City for every 10 per turn it produces, capping at Half the number of Followers. +1 ,, and in every City.
Festivals - added +1f to palace
--+3 Gold, +2 Culture and +1 Faith for every unique Luxury Resource owned or imported, +1 on Palace.
Ancestor Worship - added +1f to council, removed specialist stuff
--+1 Faith for every 3 Citizens in a city. +1 Culture and + 1 from Councils
Goddess of Beauty - reduced GA/GE to +2 (was +3)
--+2 Faith from Palace and World Wonders, +1 Faith from Great Works. +2 Great Artist and Great Engineer Points in your Capital
Stars and Sky - removed improvement requirement and food
--+1 Culture, +1 Faith and +1 Gold from Tundra tiles.
Earth Mother, +1g becomes +1c
--+1 Faith and +1 Culture from Mines on improved resources, and +1 Faith from Iron. +1 Production for every 3 Citizens in a city


Enhancers
Universalism - now called 'Abode of Peace' - removed Missionary Erosion, added minimum CS influence of 30 and CS rewards +20%
--Does it keep its yields for foreign followers as well?
Iconography - added Missionary erosion, removed +15% GP during GA
--Iconography both doesn't need the missionary erosion (our goal is a pure nerf), but this is a weird place to put this effect, as there is nothing about iconography that gives you desire to spread).

[/CODE]

 

[JamesNinelives]

Honestly the Customs house is a solid building even without the tourism, it doesn't need the grocer yields. That said, if this is to make those yields more attractive that's fine too.

I think the main motivation was to make those yields more meaningful by having them accessible earlier.

Bank and Grocer indeed come too late, and the yields they provide aren't great at that point.

There were some requests to move yields to the Customs House specifically (although they were those from the bank rather than the grocer).

A minor suggestion I have is to move the Bank resource (Gems, Gold, Silver) Yields to the Customs House.

I also find myself building Banks before Custom Houses even when I'm not on sitting on silver/gold/gems because the base building is plain better (and Custom Houses without the Bank +3 aren't worth the hammers imo).

(Sorry for editing this so many times, messed up the quotes.)