New Beta Version - 1-11 (1/11)

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Change log looks exciting, lots of cool things to try. I'm worried about

1) England. Did you do anything about early spying? The ancient era spy steals techs way too quickly and with the buffs to CS election rigging she can consistently get a faith or culture ally for serious snowballing. I seriously think that alone makes her the best civ in the game.

2) Iconography. It needs a bigger nerf than that.
 
Stars and Sky - removed improvement requirement and food

I'm not an experienced player, so by all means take my feedback with a grain of salt, but I'm kinda worried about this change: a Tundra start is problematic on its own, especially in terms of Food, so Stars and Sky is the second option to alleviate that after Goddess of the Hunt (while still taking advantage of Tundra tiles). Taking out the food seams a bit crippling in my opinion.

Than again, just my hot take.
 
Stars and Sky - removed improvement requirement and food

I'm not an experienced player, so by all means take my feedback with a grain of salt, but I'm kinda worried about this change: a Tundra start is problematic on its own, especially in terms of Food, so Stars and Sky is the second option to alleviate that after Goddess of the Hunt (while still taking advantage of Tundra tiles). Taking out the food seams a bit crippling in my opinion.

Than again, just my hot take.

Less food, but might getting that faith and culture earlier counter-balance it?
 
Great changes! Archer units needed a nerf and England needed a big nerf. This is a long time coming imo.
 
Looks good! I wonder if ranged units nerf combined with cover buff and melee units buff will not make ranged units useless now :)

Glad you didn't go with the range-2 city suggestion. Also glad you didn't revert to old terracota.
 
Gonna take a page out of Stalker's book
Gameplay
Bullying - reworked system so that method is on a % scale, with anything above 0% allowing tribute which is x%, where x is your bullying value (so if your bully score is 26%, and CS has 100 gold as max bully value, you'll get 26 gold)
Reworked mechanics under bullying to be more clear, and more focused on global power and empire proximity
Should see more bullying in the game, but for less yields each time, so it'll be much less swingy
-- overall these all sound like a nerf to Authority, but that's probably fine.
City Damage - now clear UI indicators for city CS/RCS, which are separate. Garrisons no longer affect a city's RCS, only it's CS. Also rebalanced defense from buildings etc. so that cities, overall, are tankier but do less damage to units
Buildings
Lighthouse - +1 supply
Harbor - +2 supply (removed +10% from pop)
Seaport - now +20% from pop for supply (was +10%)
-- obviously here to alleviate the problem of naval empires needing to sustain both an army and a navy. Sounds great.
Customs House - gets resource bonuses from Grocer, loses tourism bonus
Zoo - gains tourism bonus from trade routes from Customs House
-- Unnecessary, but okay. Can you also reduce the yields on forest/jungle to just 1c/1t ? With the raw tourism on tiles and now tourism on TR finish, this building is getting crazy.
Defense
Defense and HP from defensive buildings overhauled
Less defense total, more HP total
Reduced RCS bonus for cities from Castle, Arsenal
-- very much looking forward to the city defense changes
Wonders
Terracotta - bumped construction speed to 25%, bumped culture on kills to +20 (was +10)
Red Fort - reduced CS city % bonus to 10%
-- These were both long overdue. Glad to see their inclusion
Civs
England
White Tower- reduced spy effectiveness bonus to 10%, reduced instant yields (halved), reduced CS
SOTL - loses Logistics, gains Breacher promotion for free - CS/RCS improved to compensate
-- Neither of these changes fix the main issue: England's superpowered UA. I'm sad to see this inquisition on logistics continue. We took it off 2/4 units, but now all that is left is Hwacha.
Mongolia
Heavy Tribute surrender mechanic gone - now gains +100% tribute yields when tributing, and ignored PtP/alliance/other friends when calculating bully potential
-- very excited to see the tribute annex go away. There were some very serious problems with how it affected gameplay.
Spain
UA - food is back, bby
-- I think you should take a look at my proposed Spain changes again. I think they would fix a lot of the problems that cause Spain to keep changing.
Zulu
UA - removed % bonus to tribute yields
-- Zulu were never strong before this, and this was their only economy buff. I am very worried that Zulu is trash tier now.
Celts
Bran - reduced to 25% RCS (was 50%)
-- We had a huge conversation about what should be done with all of the celtic pantheons, and this is the only change?? I think you should go back and look at the Celts leader balance thread and @amateurgamer88's celtinc pantheon playthrough thread; amateurgamer88 put in a lot of hours forming opinions about all the pantheons' balance relative to each other. There is a lot more work to be done here.
Policies
Rationalism
Scaler science now +2% (was +1%)
Rights of Man - Village gold now +2 (Was +1)
-- Glad to see Villages get a little love, but now more than ever, it feels like Rationalism is just becoming the tree where balance fixes are dumped. Jungles are weak, so we give yields in rationalism. Villages are weak, so we add yields in rationalism. I think Villages are weak for everyone, not just civs going rationalism.
Statecraft
Trade Confederacy - now caps at 5 CS (was formerly uncapped)
-- I'm still utterly bemused that Trade Confederacy is as powerful as this. Capping at 3-4 would be more appropriate, IMO.
Promotions
Drill - now +15% CS (was 10%)
-- You might know something we don't about how city defense has affected the drill line, but on paper this seems completely unnecessary.
Units
Archers/Slingers - now range:1
RCS of Slinger now 9 (was 8)
Reduced RCS of all non-mounted, non-siege ranged units (except archers) slightly
Warrior CS now 8, Pathfinder CS now 6
Swordsman CS now 17, Longswordsman now 22, Landsknecht now 19
-- Oh God. Why? All of this is terrible.
-- Spearmen are having a hard enough time justifying their existence without making warriors only 3 CS below them and putting swords a whole 6CS over them. Swords will be 55% stronger than spears. And they get free Cover, now boosted to 33%. This is atrocious.
-- Are legions now 18CS??? And Iroquois can just flood the game with 17CS swordsmen, or are they now 18CS too? How are we supposed to counter sword UUs when they have >30% greater CS than any other unit that comes out for an full era? What the hell is this?
-- In the same vein, what are civs with unique spearmen to do? The difference between their base unit's power and a base unit that comes 1 tech after them is so extreme that you're better off just ignoring your UU. Unique Spears are now as bad as unique pikemen; we had to give Maori +6:c5strength:CS over pikes just to make them livable, and even that looks too modest now.
-- Now swords are stronger than War Elephants and the same CS as Pikes and Explorers. Why is everything 17 now? Are we even supposed to build pikes anymore? What kind of mickey mouse unit is that, where it can't compete with a unit that comes a full era earlier??
-- A Lansknecht nerf seems valid, that's the only thing about these changes that doesn't sound like a step back.
-- A Longswordsman buff puts us right back to the same problem with Maori warriors we had before. This undoes a ton of careful balance adjustments.
-- The majority of people, myself included, did not want 1 range archers. Why can't we increase base city range to 2?
-- None of this fixes any of the problems people were citing about spearmen being bad (and they're even worse now), or composite bows defense being way too high. Now CBows are going to be 11/11? In fact all of this makes ancient era unit balance worse.
Religion
Pantheon
Fertility - now +2 food/faith (was +2/+1)
-- literally no one asked for this. 2:c5food::c5faith: on shrines/wells is a potential 4:c5faith: at mining. That is utterly absurd, but it's only doable if you DON'T settle river. This pantheon awkwardly punishes you for rivers, and now this aspect of the belief is even more pronounced.
Open Sky - added +1 faith to 2 Plains/Grasslands
-- Open sky was strong before, it just wasn't strong for :c5faith:faith generation. I don't think this is necessary
Wisdom - now +1s per 10 followers (was 4)
-- scaling faith for :c5citizen:followers was never how this belief worked, so I am guessing you mean 1:c5faith: for every 10:c5science: in a city. Seems overkill, but I don't know what a better number would be. Maybe just double it to 8 for starters?
Festivals - added +1f to palace
-- Sure. Festivals was good, just risky founder. This helps, but not a lot, so i guess we will see
Ancestor Worship - added +1f to council, removed specialist stuff
-- Sad to see the specialist boost go a bit, but it seemed more like a follower belief kind of thing, so it's cool i guess.
Goddess of Beauty - reduced GA/GE to +2 (was +3)
Stars and Sky - removed improvement requirement and food
Earth Mother, +1g becomes +1c
-- all these look good to me.
Founder
Bumped city scaling cap on all beliefs except COE to 30 (was 20), follower scaling cap to 300 (was 250)
Council of Elders - now 20 yield from conversion (was 40, typo in text said 60), capped at 20
-- We did it lads, we killed CoE! I joke, but curious to see how that beliefs relative power performs now. Could be an overcorrection, but only playing with it will tell.
Enhancers
Universalism - now called 'Abode of Peace' - removed Missionary Erosion, added minimum CS influence of 30 and CS rewards +20%
-- Now this, I am completely opposed to. Dioceses gets to keep its boost to spreading and has the better reward for spreading, while Universalism got the most powerful spreader ability stripped off it. I guess 'Abode of Peace' is now solely focused on converting CSs? Is that 30:c5influence: resting influence only for CS following your religion? We already have a Reformation that gives more rewards for CS quests.
Iconography - added Missionary erosion, removed +15% GP during GA
-- So iconography dropped it's weaker bonus, and had it replaced with the strongest bonus from Universalism? It's less focused now, but it's also stronger. This is no good.
Diocese - renamed 'Sacred Calendar' - removed +10c/f in capital/holy city; now +15% GP during GA
-- Meh. I'm so worried about the other enhancer changes that this one doesn't even register. That's a really hard nerf, but dioceses definitely could have used a little nerf at least.
Follower
Inspiration - renamed 'Creativity'
Reformation
Jesuit - renamed 'Divine Teachings'
Knowledge Through Devotion - now 'Inspired Works'
-- I'm glad to see Jesuit renamed. It was bizzarely specific. Not sure how Inspiration or KtD got in the crosshairs, but I would say KtD and To the Glory of God are probably the most awkward beliefs to say/write/think about, so I can see grounds to rename them right there.
Techs
Reduced late game tech costs a bit
Forest Chopping now on Mining
Chop % bonus to production now on Bronze/Iron working (50% at each tech)
chop will not provide production unless you have these techs
-- I guess we will see how the tech changes turn out. I'm not sure why we need to spread it out to iron working, rather than having 100% come at Bronze. Iron Working already has Forge and now this behemoth swordsman on it. It really, really doesn't need the help.

Some things that are conspicuously not in the changelog:
- any yield rebalances to Celtic pantheons, which were even more out of whack than base pantheons
- any help for Greece/Hoplites. Hoplites are trash, and this patch makes them worse. They used to be only 1CS less than swords and now they are 4.
- Any help for Immortals to compensate for their now embarrassing 12:c5strength:CS
- a reversion of the 2:c5culture:4:tourism: on GWs, which sounds like it is both universally unpopular, and poses a legitimate concern for making GWAMs low value for non-CV players
- A nerf to Japan's GWAM generation, which is swamping regular means of generating GWAMs
- Is a Wargames wonder coming out this patch?
- Is Israel coming out this patch?
 
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Gonna take a page out of Stalker's book

-- overall these all sound like a nerf to Authority, but that's probably fine.

-- obviously here to alleviate the problem of naval empires needing to sustain both an army and a navy. Sounds great.

-- Unnecessary, but okay. Can you also reduce the yields on forest/jungle to just 1c/1t ? With the raw tourism on tiles and now tourism on TR finish, this building is getting crazy.

-- very much looking forward to the city defense changes

-- These were both long overdue. Glad to see their inclusion

-- Neither of these changes fix the main issue: England's superpowered UA. I'm sad to see this inquisition on logistics continue. We took it off 2/4 units, but now all that is left is Hwacha.

-- very excited to see the tribute annex go away. There were some very serious problems with how it affected gameplay.

-- I think you should take a look at my proposed Spain changes again. I think they would fix a lot of the problems that cause Spain to keep changing.

-- Zulu were never strong before this, and this was their only economy buff. I am very worried that Zulu is trash tier now.

-- We had a huge conversation about what should be done with all of the celtic pantheons, and this is the only change?? I think you should go back and look at the Celts leader balance thread; amateurgamer88 put in a lot of hours forming opinions about all the pantheons' balance relative to each other. There is a lot more work to be done here.

-- Glad to see Villages get a little love, but now more than ever, it feels like Rationalism is just becoming the tree where balance fixes are dumped. Jungles are weak, so we give yields in rationalism. Villages are weak, so we add yields in rationalism. I think Villages are weak for everyone, not just civs going rationalism.

-- I'm still utterly bemused that Trade Confederacy is as powerful as this.

-- You might know something we don't about how city defense has affected the drill line, but on paper this seems completely unnecessary.

-- Oh God. Why? All of this is terrible.
-- Spearmen are having a hard enough time justifying their existence without making warriors only 3 CS below them and putting swords a whole 6CS over them. Swords will be 55% stronger than spears. And they get free Cover. This is atrocious.
-- Are legions now 18CS??? And Iroquois can just flood the game with 17CS swordsmen, or are they now 18CS too? How are we supposed to counter sword UUs when they have >30% greater CS than any other unit that comes out for an full era? What the hell is this?
-- In the same vein, what are civs with unique spearmen to do? The difference between their base unit's power and a base unit that comes 1 tech after them is so extreme that you're better off just ignoring your UU. Unique Spears are now as bad as unique pikemen; we had to give Maori +6:c5strength:CS over pikes just to make them livable, and even that looks too modest now.
-- Now swords are stronger than War Elephants and the same CS as Pikes and Explorers. Why is everything 17 now? Are we even supposed to build pikes anymore? What kind of mickey mouse unit is that, where it can't compete with a unit that comes a full era earlier??
-- A Lansknecht nerf seems valid, that's the only thing about these changes that doesn't sound like a step back.
-- A Longswordsman buff puts us right back to the same problem with Maori warriors we had before. This undoes a ton of careful balance adjustments.
-- The majority of people, myself included, did not want 1 range archers. Why can't we increase base city range to 2?
-- None of this fixes any of the problems people were citing about spearmen being bad (and they're even worse now), or composite bows defense being way too high. Now CBows are going to be 11/11? In fact all of this makes ancient era unit balance worse.

-- literally no one asked for this. 2:c5food::c5faith: on shrines/wells is a potential 4:c5faith: at mining. That is utterly absurd, but it's only doable if you DON'T settle river. This pantheon awkwardly punishes you for rivers, and now this aspect of the belief is even more pronounced.

-- Open sky was strong before, it just wasn't strong for :c5faith:faith generation. I don't think this is necessary

-- scaling faith for :c5citizen:followers was never how this belief worked, so I am guessing you mean 1:c5faith: for every 10:c5science: in a city. Seems overkill, but I don't know what a better number would be. Maybe just double it to 8 for starters?

-- Sure. Festivals was good, just risky founder. This helps, but not a lot, so i guess we will see

-- Sad to see the specialist boost go a bit, but it seemed more like a follower belief kind of thing, so it's cool i guess.

-- all these look good to me.

-- We did it lads, we killed CoE! I joke, but curious to see how that beliefs relative power performs now. Could be an overcorrection, but only playing with it will tell.

-- Now this, I am completely opposed to. Dioceses gets to keep its boost to spreading and has the better reward for spreading, while Universalism got the most powerful spreader ability stripped off it. I guess 'Abode of Peace' is now solely focused on converting CSs? Is that 30:c5influence: resting influence only for CS following your religion? We already have a Reformation that gives more rewards for CS quests.

-- So iconography dropped it's weaker bonus, and had it replaced with the strongest bonus from Universalism? It's less focused now, but it's also stronger. This is no good.

-- Meh. I'm so worried about the other enhancer changes that this one doesn't even register. That's a really hard nerf, but dioceses definitely could have used a little nerf at least.

-- I'm glad to see Jesuit renamed. It was bizzarely specific. Not sure how Inspiration or KtD got in the crosshairs, but I would say KtD and To the Glory of God are probably the most awkward beliefs to say/write/think about, so I can see grounds to rename them right there.

-- I guess we will see how the tech changes turn out. I'm not sure why we need to spread it out to iron working, rather than having 100% come at Bronze. Iron Working already has Forge and now this behemoth swordsman on it. It really, really doesn't need the help.

Some things that are conspicuously not in the changelog:
- any yield rebalances to Celtic pantheons, which were even more out of whack than base pantheons
- any help for Greece/Hoplites. Hoplites are trash, and this patch makes them worse. They used to be only 1CS less than swords and now they are 3.
- Any help for Immortals to compensate for their now embarassing 13:c5strength:CS
- a reversion of the 2:c5culture:4:tourism: on GWs, which sounds like it is both universally unpopular, and poses a legitimate concern for making GWAMs low value for non-CV players
- A nerf to Japan's GWAM generation, which is swamping regular means of generating GWAMs
- Is a Wargames wonder coming out this patch?
- Is Israel coming out this patch?

Just a note that my changelog is not exhaustive - I've got more things to do, this is purely a WIP. Also, comparing my notes to the CBO, some things are incorrect and I'll fix (such as Drill - that was an earlier change before I bumped swordsmen up).

G
 
Just a note that my changelog is not exhaustive - I've got more things to do, this is purely a WIP
That sword line change creates far more problems than it could possibly solve. If Cover is increasing by 33% then swords are already getting a buff this patch.
For your consideration:
Spear line: drops anti-mounted promotion. Free Formation I instead
Formation I & II changed from 25% vs mounted/10% open defense to 33% vs mounted/15% open defense
Immortal 12:c5strength: => 13:c5strength:
Hoplite 13:c5strength: => 15:c5strength:
Increase Discipline from 5% CS/5% Adjacent to 10% CS/10% Adjacent
Horseman 13:c5strength: => 14:c5strength:
Mandekalu Cavalry 14:c5strength:=>15:c5strength:
Composite Bowman 12:c5rangedstrength:/11:c5strength: => 12:c5rangedstrength:/10:c5strength:
Babylon Bowman 14:c5rangedstrength:/12:c5strength: => 14:c5rangedstrength:/11:c5strength:
Atlatlist 12:c5rangedstrength:/11:c5strength: => 13:c5rangedstrength:/10:c5strength:
no changes to archer or archer UUs

If everything gets stronger around archer then it is nerfed. Spear line unit CS is where it should be, but their promotions aren't pulling their weight. UU spears are already a joke without pumping up swords even more. If Spears can be boosted via a promotion change, then that moves the limiter on horses back up a bit too, and they can in turn handle archers better.

To put this all in perspective, I think all of the changes except these unit changes and the Zulu change are all unequivocal improvements over the current version. That even includes the Fertility change. I just think the unit balance is heading in a very bad direction.
 
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Change log looks exciting, lots of cool things to try. I'm worried about

1) England. Did you do anything about early spying? The ancient era spy steals techs way too quickly and with the buffs to CS election rigging she can consistently get a faith or culture ally for serious snowballing. I seriously think that alone makes her the best civ in the game.

2) Iconography. It needs a bigger nerf than that.

Spying on civs without the chance of counterspies is nerfed, yes.

G
 
That sword line change creates far more problems than it could possibly solve. If Cover is increasing by 33% then swords are already getting a buff this patch.
For your consideration:
Spear line: drops anti-mounted promotion. Free Formation I instead
Formation I & II changed from 25% vs mounted/10% open defense to 33% vs mounted/15% open defense
Immortal 12:c5strength: => 13:c5strength:
Hoplite 13:c5strength: => 15:c5strength:
Increase Discipline from 5% CS/5% Adjacent to 10% CS/10% Adjacent
Horseman 13:c5strength: => 14:c5strength:
Mandekalu Cavalry 14:c5strength:=>15:c5strength:
Composite Bowman 12:c5rangedstrength:/11:c5strength: => 12:c5rangedstrength:/10:c5strength:
Babylon Bowman 14:c5rangedstrength:/12:c5strength: => 14:c5rangedstrength:/11:c5strength:
Atlatlist 12:c5rangedstrength:/11:c5strength: => 13:c5rangedstrength:/10:c5strength:
no changes to archer or archer UUs

If everything gets stronger around archer then it is nerfed. Spear line unit CS is where it should be, but their promotions aren't pulling their weight. UU spears are already a joke without pumping up swords even more. If Spears can be boosted via a promotion change, then that moves the limiter on horses back up a bit too, and they can in turn handle archers better.

To put this all in perspective, I think all of the changes except these unit changes and the Zulu change are all unequivocal improvements over the current version. That even includes the Fertility change. I just think the unit balance is heading in a very bad direction.

I disagree re: swords - it's a heavy investment in a difficult position on the tech tree. We don't need to change horsies to compensate.

I do have plans for spears etc., yes.

Zulus are monstrously good warmongers, the change is barely anything for them. Their bully buff is much stronger now than before, so the change balances out.

G
 
I do have plans for spears etc., yes.
I would like to hear them, because right now it looks like they have been tarred and feathered.

I hate this archer change and what it does to several of my mods. I hate this sword change and how it swallows up pikemen even more than they already have.

I would very much like to have an explanation as to how any civ is supposed to survive an entire era with no units unlocking in late classical if they don't start with iron.
 
I would like to hear them, because right now it looks like they have been tarred and feathered.

I hate this archer change and what it does to several of my mods. I hate this sword change and how it swallows up pikemen even more than they already have.

I would very much like to have an explanation as to how any civ is supposed to survive an entire era with no units unlocking in late classical if they don't start with iron.

If you think a 1CS change swallows up a unit, I've got a bridge to sell you.

G
 
Swordsman
requires 1 iron
100:c5production:
2:c5moves:
17:c5strength:
Cover I (+33% defense vs ranged)

Pikeman
135:c5production:
2:c5moves:
17:c5strength:
Anti-mounted (+50% vs mounted units; lost on upgrade)

So the only difference between them is cost/resource, their free promotion, and 1 unlocks an era earlier. Swallows up. Consider me interested in seeing that bridge, tyvm. This time last year swords were 15CS and had shock 1, so it's not just 1 CS. Even in this patch it's +1CS and +8% ranged defense so you're not even being honest strictly on the basis of these changes in isolation. Their free promotion has steadily been getting stronger, and they have gotten 2 CS in the past year. In the same time Horses have had 1CS taken away, spears had 1 CS added, and composite bows were brought earlier.

Swords are not on a difficult position on the tech tree, that's just not factual. Metal casting, the tech after iron, is a difficult position on the tech tree. Sharing a tech with Forge, one of the best classical buildings, is not some marginal tech. And you're proposing to boost it further by adding a chop bonus there.

What you are proposing here is not just 1CS difference in swords. You are proposing to make a classical unit 31% stronger than the next biggest unit (horseman) available for 2 tech levels. With those numbers, what meaningful counter is there to a sword rush except your own swords? At 17CS with 33% ranged defense, they have an effective defense of 23:c5strength:CS vs ranged attacks, 27:c5strength:CS in rough.

I do not think this is hyperbole; Knights were getting complaints when they were 25:c5strength:CS, or 25% stronger than the next available unit (20:c5strength:CS longswords). At least with knights, you had pikes hitting them for an effective :c5strength:CS of 26, and costing 67% of the :c5production:production and no strategics. Horses also don't get terrain bonuses. Legions take an incredible amount of punishment at 17CS currently; making that the default is not something I'm interested in at all.
 
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Swordsman
requires 1 iron
100:c5production:
2:c5moves:
17:c5strength:
Cover I (+33% defense vs ranged)

Pikeman
135:c5production:
2:c5moves:
17:c5strength:
Anti-mounted (+50% vs mounted units; lost on upgrade)

So the only difference between them is cost/resource, their free promotion, and 1 unlocks an era earlier. Swallows up. Consider me interested in seeing that bridge, tyvm. This time last year swords were 15CS and had shock 1, so it's not just 1 CS. Even in this patch it's +1CS and +8% ranged defense so you're not even being honest strictly on the basis of these changes in isolation. Their free promotion has steadily been getting stronger, and they have gotten 2 CS in the past year. In the same time Horses have had 1CS taken away, spears had 1 CS added, and composite bows were brought earlier.

Swords are not on a difficult position on the tech tree, that's just not factual. Metal casting, the tech after iron, is a difficult position on the tech tree. Sharing a tech with Forge, one of the best classical buildings, is not some marginal tech. And you're proposing to boost it further by adding a chop bonus there.

What you are proposing here is not just 1CS difference in swords. You are proposing to make a classical unit 31% stronger than the next biggest unit (horseman) available for 2 tech levels. With those numbers, what meaningful counter is there to a sword rush except your own swords? At 17CS with 33% ranged defense, they have an effective defense of 23:c5strength:CS vs ranged attacks, 27:c5strength:CS in rough.

I do not think this is hyperbole; Knights were getting complaints when they were 25:c5strength:CS, or 25% stronger than the next available unit (20:c5strength:CS longswords). At least with knights, you had pikes hitting them for an effective :c5strength:CS of 26, and costing 67% of the :c5production:production and no strategics. Horses also don't get terrain bonuses. Legions take an incredible amount of punishment at 17CS currently; making that the default is not something I'm interested in at all.

Horsies are much more mobile, and mobility is king. Furthermore, horses and knights are in better positions on the tech tree.

G
 
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