New Beta Version - 1-11 (1/11)

[DuckBacon]

Tested the first version of this beta in multiplayer.

Map: Continents Plus
Size: Standard
Resources: Legendary
Human Players: 4

There were no issues that we could see for the first 100-ish turns of the game. However, after about 1100-ish turns we began to have some desync problems. We had a desync around every 3 - 5 turns. No one was kicked during these desyncs (as that has happened to us in the past). After one player left the game we started to have less desyncs, about once every 10 turns. I do not know if this was caused primarily through internet connection or the game.

Here is the modpack I made. It has this beta version + info addict
https://mega.nz/#F!g9xSSawa!CyhfdQ3SahglhnICJGuqIw

Will make a new modpack for the new beta

 

[Voremonger]

I think that compared to a few patches ago Assyria is stronger now due to the lower City CS.
If you rush ~4 Horsemen and 1 Siege Tower you can conquer quite a few Cities that do not yet have Walls.

Despite a strong start I unfortunately still lost the game where I was playing as Assyria though.
I did not get to found a Religion and the Religions that spread to my Cities had the exact wrong Beliefs for me.
At least if you go Authority on Deity I think that either Thrift or Diligence are a must-have right now because otherwise your Cities will be fatally underdeveloped.

 

[BiteInTheMark]

I've seen the AI neglect working forest/jungle luxuries is my games too (not this beta in particular even).

That said, is it possible Portugal lost some of it's workers (or is just being very careful with them) due to conflict with it's neighbours, or barbarians? Does the AI know how to escort their workers with a military unit?

Not improving forest and jungle plantation luxuries is nothing new, seen this since several patches. But not even doing some farms on plains after already 150 turns is really strange.
I mean, no matter how big the discount advantages of the AI are, working only 2 yield tiles is terrible. I really wonder how the city have made it to 11 citizen.
I cant remember any war Portugal has fought, except their DoW vs me, but I havnt done any effort to invade them, so its really questionable, why their land is so barren.

At least if you go Authority on Deity I think that either Thrift or Diligence are a must-have right now because otherwise your Cities will be fatally underdeveloped.

I didnt play often as a warmonger but have done so in the last patch and have to say, there are several situations were my financial situation was very critical. Thrift is in this situation of course really helpful. Unfortunatly, till you get Imperialism, the effect of Thrift goes down to 2 gold per city.

 

[SuperNoobCamper]

In my current game as England i noticed that steam mill did not generate any Great engineer points at all.
I made sure i had engineer specialists in the city, the buildings i produced were sea port and public school (Both are industrial era buildings)....... is this a known bug or i have to report it on github ?

 

[Stalker0]

Just confirmed one additional change: The max anti-warmonger penalty has changed with difficulties. For example: It is now 65% max on Immortal. Once again though, it takes significantly more effort to get the cap that high, as it increases much slower than before.

 

[CrazyG]

In my current game as England i noticed that steam mill did not generate any Great engineer points at all.
I made sure i had engineer specialists in the city, the buildings i produced were sea port and public school (Both are industrial era buildings)....... is this a known bug or i have to report it on github ?

The Steam Mill has not been England's unique building for a long time, it has been replaced by the white tower. So something is very wrong here.

 

[ridjack]

Once again though, it takes significantly more effort to get the cap that high, as it increases much slower than before.

I'm not seeing this at ALL. After talking one capital and a satellite from China with my Archer rush, then one satellite from the Inca someone around Military Theory, I was fighting multiple-front wars with the anti warmonger fervor at 40% on Emperor where I believe the previous cap was 25%. It was absolutely miserable and I ended up resigning that game.

Is this a value I can adjust easily? The 25% cap felt fine to me; the 40% feels awful and anti fun.

 

[CrazyG]

What happened in two test games for me. First, I took two Siamese cities, only had a 5% penalty against Siam, reloaded the same start, attacked a different neighbor instead, took a single Persian city (that was actually smaller than the Siamese ones) and was already at 40%.

The system would just be so much better if it was clearly defined and used objective measures of warmongering that I can keep track of (like captured cities and capitals), rather than hard to assess things such as "distance", AI personality**, or things which are just part of the game, such as enemy killing units in your own territory (do people think of a nation as a warmonger for defending itself?) I think the distance modifier in particular was a bad addition, because the AI's assessment of distance isn't consistent or clear, and what are you going to conquer the other side of the world before your neighbors?

**I know someone has said this isn't a factor, but I always have more penalty against Persia or Songhai than peaceful civs. It is easily observable. Maybe something is indirectly causing it.

 

[HungryForFood]

In my current game as England i noticed that steam mill did not generate any Great engineer points at all.
I made sure i had engineer specialists in the city, the buildings i produced were sea port and public school (Both are industrial era buildings)....... is this a known bug or i have to report it on github ?

Steam Mill is part of the 4UC mod now, report it there.

 

[SuperNoobCamper]

Steam Mill is part of the 4UC mod now, report it there.

That's probably the case, i'm using 3rd/4th UCs indeed.

 

[ridjack]

What happened in two test games for me. First, I took two Siamese cities, only had a 5% penalty against Siam, reloaded the same start, attacked a different neighbor instead, took a single Persian city (that was actually smaller than the Siamese ones) and was already at 40%.

The system would just be so much better if it was clearly defined and used objective measures of warmongering that I can keep track of (like captured cities and capitals), rather than hard to assess things such as "distance", AI personality**, or things which are just part of the game, such as enemy killing units in your own territory (do people think of a nation as a warmonger for defending itself?) I think the distance modifier in particular was a bad addition, because the AI's assessment of distance isn't consistent or clear, and what are you going to conquer the other side of the world before your neighbors?

**I know someone has said this isn't a factor, but I always have more penalty against Persia or Songhai than peaceful civs. It is easily observable. Maybe something is indirectly causing it.

Alright, I thought I was losing it. Had 40% against Assyria, but only 22% against the Inca in the same war.

 

[BiteInTheMark]

I'm not seeing this at ALL. After talking one capital and a satellite from China with my Archer rush, then one satellite from the Inca someone around Military Theory, I was fighting multiple-front wars with the anti warmonger fervor at 40% on Emperor where I believe the previous cap was 25%. It was absolutely miserable and I ended up resigning that game.

Is this a value I can adjust easily? The 25% cap felt fine to me; the 40% feels awful and anti fun.

Played now several warmonger games in previous version and have to agree, the response of the AI is unpredictable.
In one oval map game, I've taken a capital and only its direct neighbor and friend cared about it. The game after I've burned a small 4 pop city from Morocco and everyone hates me. 20 turns later Iam at war with 75% of the world and only 1 of 8 AIs wasn't hostile to me.

 

[Recursive]

I'm not seeing this at ALL. After talking one capital and a satellite from China with my Archer rush, then one satellite from the Inca someone around Military Theory, I was fighting multiple-front wars with the anti warmonger fervor at 40% on Emperor where I believe the previous cap was 25%. It was absolutely miserable and I ended up resigning that game.

Is this a value I can adjust easily? The 25% cap felt fine to me; the 40% feels awful and anti fun.

DifficultyMod.xml in the CBP (the value for the max penalty is ResistanceCap).

Played now several warmonger games in previous version and have to agree, the response of the AI is unpredictable.
In one oval map game, I've taken a capital and only its direct neighbor and friend cared about it. The game after I've burned a small 4 pop city from Morocco and everyone hates me. 20 turns later Iam at war with 75% of the world and only 1 of 8 AIs wasn't hostile to me.

Irrational AI hostility should be better in this version. If you still see strange AI diplomacy behavior, post in the diplomacy feedback thread and I'll look at it when I return.

 

[CrazyG]

I want to ask if a few things on this patch are intentional

Mongolia has no cool down to annex city states
Barbs leave camps to attack pathfinders. If a pathfinder has trailblazer II, it can ignore ZOC and usually clear the now empty camp. On Deity, AI pathfinders do this frequently. There is a very noticeable reduction in barbarians from this.

 

[Rafs]

The barbs leaving camps to attack pathfinders I've seen this happen for quite some time now, I think it's intended (as normally even if you clean the camp, you are usually within range of the barb for a second slam that would be quite hurtful). Barbs don't seem to do this vs scouts though, maybe it's because they think they won't do enough damage to justify leaving the encampment.

 

[tothePAIN]

I took a vassal and the AI declared war on my vassal rather than me.

 

[Tugboatspotter]

Is pledge protection to city state working as intended?

I am still seeing AI declare war on a CS I have pledged to protect with no consequence. What am I missing?

 

[Recursive]

I took a vassal and the AI declared war on my vassal rather than me.

Oboy, it's back.

 

[CrazyG]

The barbs leaving camps to attack pathfinders I've seen this happen for quite some time now, I think it's intended (as normally even if you clean the camp, you are usually within range of the barb for a second slam that would be quite hurtful). Barbs don't seem to do this vs scouts though, maybe it's because they think they won't do enough damage to justify leaving the encampment.

The barbs only leave the camp if they win by a big enough margin (spear camps will attack archers), and they cannot see a unit which could clear the camp, but they don't seem to account for ignoring ZoC. And in forest or jungle it's really easy for a pathfinder to be in range but not be seen.

I'm more concerned about the AI wiping out barb camps so quickly than I am about the player using this gimmick. It affects social policy balance, I'm regularly seeing the AI who take authority fall really far behind in culture on Deity. City States also start with an extra warrior, so they tend to clear any camp within 2 tiles. AI warriors can clear a camp alone in a 1v1 fight. You put these all together and you just get very, very few barbarians. I had an authority game where I never found a single one.

 

[JamesNinelives]

The barbs only leave the camp if they win by a big enough margin (spear camps will attack archers), and they cannot see a unit which could clear the camp, but they don't seem to account for ignoring ZoC. And in forest or jungle it's really easy for a pathfinder to be in range but not be seen.

I'm more concerned about the AI wiping out barb camps so quickly than I am about the player using this gimmick. It affects social policy balance, I'm regularly seeing the AI who take authority fall really far behind in culture on Deity. City States also start with an extra warrior, so they tend to clear any camp within 2 tiles. AI warriors can clear a camp alone in a 1v1 fight. You put these all together and you just get very, very few barbarians. I had an authority game where I never found a single one.

My personal experience is that as often as not my pathfinder gets hurt or several damanged by these kind of attacks. Especially because camps rarely have just one barb unit, and two hits with flanking can be a death sentance for a pathfinder.The AI might clear the camp, but they will very likely loose that unit (and by extension whatever ancient ruins it might have uncovered).

I guess on higher difficulties that's not a big loss becase the AI gets bonus units, but I think we should be careful generalising from that.