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New Beta Version - April 14th (4/14)

Discussion in 'Community Patch Project' started by Gazebo, Apr 14, 2021.

  1. looorg

    looorg Warlord

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    I think the breakdown looks kind of normal, Buildings is somewhat more then half the expense. Units about half of buildings and I guess you do have a fairly extensive road network. But it's sort of half the unit amount. Which is usually somewhat more then I tend to end up with. Dig up some railroads you don't need? Sure it's only 2 gpt but if you remove a couple of them it really does add up. Certainly so if one just leaves the old "war-roads" around after having moved on from that area.

    I guess the main issue is that eventually as the turns progress you just build all the buildings in all the cities just cause you can. Perhaps one should be somewhat more frugal with them. That said I do the exact same things so it's not that I'm blaming someone for it.

    How does the cities look? Are you working "big gold"-tiles and Merchant specialists? Or is it the usual all production and culture route?

    It's somewhat weird to be this barely above the gold parity while also doing gold projects in 7 out of 10 cities (even tho two of them are puppets, and three of them are putting out less then 100g each).

    Neither Progress, Artistry or Rationalism do wonders for your economy. It might have been a good thing to at least take one policy three that added more then a few gold per city. That or the gold distro between polices isn't exactly even -- but it's choices you have to make.

    I do have noticed to that the AI seem to now favor Trad+Art+Rat as the policy selection. Most of them just seem to go that route. Even AI that previously always went Authority or Statecraft seem to have seriously downplayed those choices.

    Those Monty puppets might be a big ol' drain on the economy.

    Perhaps we have all become to reliant on abusing the AI for stupid deals -- yes buy this one Horse you don't need for 24 gpt! etc

    Perhaps the Atomic and Information era could use a few more buildings that generate gold? Or just buildings in general that are not just gigantic maintenance drains on the treasury. The last building that can generate a little bit of gold is some of the power plants. Before that it's the stock exchanges at the start of the modern era. Then nothing. All at the same time where each and every other building cost like 10gpt (+- various modifiers) in maintenance.
     
  2. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

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    Just to be clear, espionage is not supposed to be crazy different - mainly just a refactoring of code and a cleanup of the % values to make them accurate.

    I'll ask this, though: would there be an interest (and this is not a commitment on my behalf) to modifying the espionage model entirely? My thought is that I might leverage the robust event system I built to actually make 'espionage events' that trigger at certain thresholds of 'espionage power' that a spy makes in a city. Then, the player is presented with opportunities to - say - steal a tech, or steal gold, etc. etc. on an event by event basis.

    Does that make sense?

    G
     
  3. Emperorman1

    Emperorman1 Chieftain

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    New spying mechanic sounds like a great idea!
     
  4. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    Hehe so I've been hating on spying for a loooong time, so I would have to vote yes if that is actually an interest to the modders.

    Ultimately my issues with the spy system fall into these main notes:
    • Highly variable and opaque mechanics. My spy time this game is 6 turns, next game around the same time its 20. Sometimes I can pick up an espionage quest in 10 turns, sometimes I can't snag it in 60....and I couldn't tell you why.
    • I've never found advanced spy actions very interesting. They aren't things that I "do" with strategic play or anything, they "simply happen" randomly and chaotically. It never ever effects my decision making, I put a constabulary in my capital, and that's about it. I never use counterspies myself.
    • Spy leveling seems to matter a good amount, which makes spy death even more random and chaotic. Losing your spy on your first round of spying could literally cost you 2-3 techs. There is also no way to "level up spies" more quickly, aka training buildings or spending gold on them or something. For example, if on building constabularies gave all current and future spies +1 "spy power"....well okay that's something.

    So while I know what you noting is conceptual, here's why I already like it.
    • The notion of "spy power" at first glance makes a lot of sense. I put a spy in a city, and I can see my "spy points" go up. Hopefully the UI would tell me how my spy gives me X amount of points, and why the city removes Y points, in a clear manner. I know exactly how much gaining "+2 spy power" would do to speed up my turns, or how much a counterspy would slow it down, etc.
    • Turning Spy actions into a concrete mechanic solidifies it as a strategic choice. I am choosing to do big thing X as opposed to little Ys that just happen randomly. I'm also fine with some of them having gold costs for example, maybe a treasury steal is free, but a tech steal costs X gold. No issue with that, I don't mind paying for my spy privilege's as long as I get what I want, and its not a "random chance".
    • I am fine with you using the event system engine....as long as I don't have to turn events on to use the new spy system. I would want those separate.

    The trick with a good spy system is by default it puts a target on the top player, and the balance is the ability to pile on pain to the top dog, while giving the Top Dog enough defenses so they don't feel like what can happen when you start a game next to England and watch your gold just evaporate into dust.
     
    Recursive, vyyt, Legen and 2 others like this.
  5. Tekamthi

    Tekamthi Prince

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    i think there's lots of potential for better spy system, perhaps even scrapping much of existing mechanisms... civ 2's spy implementation remains my fave, but probably not practical for VP

    using events system sounds nice, would be great if it created some need to move spies around to complete objectives rather than just sit in one city, and if there were more intriguing counter-espionage to match
     
    Recursive and glider1 like this.
  6. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    I could see a good piggy back with the CS quest system to augment that idea. Replace the boring and variable espionage quest with something like "complete a treasury steal event in the City of X".
     
  7. Tekamthi

    Tekamthi Prince

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    good idea... maybe expand this to "complete X treasury steals in different cities of same player" etc.
     
  8. bahamut19

    bahamut19 Chieftain

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    Gazebo,

    You and the team of VP have done some great work with VP. My gal and I play this religiously and is a big part of our at home time. We like the spy rework idea, however, we were wondering. Is there any plans to make a finished base VP version? I ask because sometimes with these large-scale changes, many modmods end up not functioning correctly due to changes in the DLL tables or a change in core mechanics. With all of the great work the total mod community has done, it would be great if there was a final base VP version, and then transition into integrating various modmods the community finds popular into VP. This integration of course would come with its own balancing needs, but all be balanced to the base VP. I know some modmods which I feel are wholly vital to the VP experience are More Uniques, ENW and EAW, More Wonders, and many of the well designed Civs out there (many of which no longer work well with the current version of VP).

    These are just some thoughts and if there is much response to this, I may create an entirely new thread to pose this question.
     
  9. SuperNoobCamper

    SuperNoobCamper King

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    Something about the spies feels totally out of place ... did not notice this before but it's totally overtuned.
    For the record i have a level 3 spy in a capital with constabulary and all the defensive buildings up to Arsenal yet pretty much every single i get robbed out of gold, tech stolen, science stolen before arsenals and if god forbid i tried to build a wonder it gets sabotaged.
    Here is the breakdown from espionage overview (in addition to a terrible quality screenshot because god knows why my PC does not want to take a proper screenshot anymore)
    • Defensive espionage modifier: city modifier =25%
    • Possible outcomes while defending
      • Chance to kill spies: 12%
      • Chance to identify spies: 24%
    • Poss6 outcomes while defending (Advanced actions)
      • Chance to kill: Zero%
      • Chance to identify: 12%
     

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    vyyt likes this.
  10. looorg

    looorg Warlord

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    I don't recall how it has been in the past but I don't think you have been doing much killing on the advanced actions (thieving great works, stealing gold etc or if you will all things that are not stealing techs) before either, most of the espionage termination have been on the spying/tech-steal (which is the first defensive one). Valid questions might be why is the advanced actions values so low?

    Defensive espionage modifiers 23% (25%, -37%, 35%)
    Possible Outcome while defending (44% kill, 88% identify)
    Possible Outcome while defending (aa) (0% kill, 44% identify)

    These are the numbers in my current deity, marathon game as England.
     
  11. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

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    you can only die on an AA if your ‘heat’ is above a certain threshold.

    and yeah I think I am going to rework spies. I don’t know how but they suck right now.
    G
     
    DeAnno, vyyt, Emperorman1 and 7 others like this.
  12. SuperNoobCamper

    SuperNoobCamper King

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    Defending in the previous versions was not that good either but this is just too much; we are talking about level 3 spy with every defensive building and every anti-spy measure possible till that point and we are getting ZERO% chance to intercept them.
     
    vyyt likes this.
  13. Wild_Vendor

    Wild_Vendor Chieftain

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  14. usadefcon1

    usadefcon1 Warlord

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    Whatever system you come up with I'm sure will get implemented into Civ VII
     
  15. pineappledan

    pineappledan Deity

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  16. youngsteve

    youngsteve Prince

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    I always play now with raging barbarians & find them very good. Yes, there are loads of them but if you take authority you can gain loads of science/culture early on.
     
    tommytoxen and Hinin like this.
  17. tommytoxen

    tommytoxen Warlord

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    how do you get cool little names of areas like that? or did you add those yourself in paint or something?
     
  18. adac

    adac Chieftain

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    So what is the current version? "Vox Populi (4-16).exe" or is there a newer bugfix dll on Github?
     
  19. Snipergw

    Snipergw Chieftain

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    Kim Dong Un, EGA and tommytoxen like this.
  20. Jednooki_John

    Jednooki_John Chieftain

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    Sounds like an excellent idea
     

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