New Beta Version - August 5th (8-5)

[Gazebo]

Hey all,

New beta inbound, based on feedback.

General
    Bugfixes and performance improvements
    Continued text tweaks and adjustments
    
Balance
    Buildings/Wonders
        Instant yield 'one shot' bonuses from buildings no longer scale with Era
        Adjusted instant yield values for buildings affected by this:
            Stadium - now 1000 GAP
            Zoo - now 400 Tourism
            Circus - same
        Oxford - now +25c per tech (was +75)
        Oracle - now 400c/400s (Was 500s/500c)
    Policies
        Tradition
            Returned +2 happy on capital for opener
        Progress
            Expertise - now +10c per building (was +15)
            Equality - now +1 happy per 10 (was 8) citizens
        Authority
            Imperium - now +40s/c from founding/conquest (was 30)
            Tribute - now +30c from tribute (was +25)
    Difficulty
        Removed some free starting capital happiness from each difficulty level (2 from easier, 1 from harder)
    Civs
        Venice
            Merchant now has move of 4
        Ethiopia
            Fixed accidental removal of +1f on strategics
        India   
            Naga - prereq tech now gunpowder, RCS 33 (was 35), CS 28 (was 30)
    Units
        Admiral now 1 charge (was 2)
        Settlers require a minimum city size of 4 before they can be built
        Settler production cost scales a bit more, and also scales based on the # of cities in your empire (uses empire scaler value), so more cities = more expensive settlers. Settle wisely!
    Resources
        Now +2 happy per resource flat (was 3)
            Scaler is now +1 happy per lux per every 5 cities (was 4)
    Happiness
        Faith and gold purchases now affected by local unhappiness
        Settler cost now affected by local unhappiness
        Ratio metric modified - now a +/- 50% ratio instead of 100% to 0%
            Anything above 50% is 'stable' and normal
                35-49% is unhappy
                20-34% is very unhappy
                0%-19% is super unhappy
            Feedback a little easier for people to see this way (as you can watch value creep down from 100% towards 50%)
            Also makes a bit more sense - if over 50% of your people like you, your empire is majority stable!
        Empire modifier now 10% (was 5%)
        Tech base modifier now 150% (was 100%)
        Pop modifier now -100% (was -50%)
        Boredom scaler now 20 (was 50)
        Illiteracy scaler now 40 (was 50)
        Poverty scaler now 60 (was 50)
        Distress scaler now 80 (was 60)
            What these mean - citizens are less sensitive to yield differences for distress than boredom, on that spectrum
            Should see a greater variety of unhappiness in cities

CP is savegame compatible. CBO is not, for obvious reasons.

Link: https://mega.nz/#F!2Jdw3aQT!Z49gV7KAyMq6YiG5BD9jaA

G

 

[Deljade]

Just as I finished my game! Great timing! I'll start a new one to try out the beta when time allows

 

[CrazyG]

Good patch.

You should increase the circus's value, probably double it, so it's the same as it used to be in medieval. The Zoo as well (probably increase from 100 to 400 or 500.

Settlers require a minimum city size of 4 before they can be built

I don't like this. Some capitals can take a very long time to reach 4 population (for example beginning in a plains forest). I think the other changes would get the job done.

 

[amateurgamer88]

Why do I feel that Progress got nerfed a bit too hard? The changes to settler costs will already lessen the number of cities you can grab. Less cities won't affect Tradition as much while Authority encourages you to take foreign cities by force. Are the nerfs to Expertise and Equality really necessary when grabbing more cities is made tougher for Progress?

 

[chicorbeef]

Authority may have been buffed too much, Progress/Settlers being nerfed already buffs Authority.

I don't see why Ethiopia got its +1 on Strategic Resources back, it seems unnecessary to me, but I don't care too much (I just don't like Ethiopia getting its pantheon SO early all the time and this kind of feeds into it) and I could just edit it out myself if I really wanted to.

 

[John.B.C]

My tradition capital was size 5, then went down to size 4 after producing a settler. This ain't right eh?

 

[DeAnno]

Settlers appear to swallow a population when made, might be an undocumented change.

This has the rather curious effect that you would rather build settlers in barely maturing cities with 4 pop than smash them out quickly in very large cities, since it'll take longer and be more disruptive for the large cities to regrow.

 

[tu_79]

If a city loses 1 pop for producing a settler (which makes a whole lot of sense), then the city size requirement can be lowered.

 

[BiteInTheMark]

If Gazebo try to hunt a rabbit (balance for expansion):
Shoting at the rabbit with an air pressured gun and see thats useless. Instead upgrading to a hunting rifle, he take a machine gun and fires into the wood like Arnold Schwarzenegger in Predator to desintegrate that fluffy ball.
Maybe an American thing

Buildings/Wonders Instant yield 'one shot' bonuses from buildings no longer scale with Era Adjusted instant yield values for buildings affected by this: Stadium - now 1000 GAP Zoo - now 400 Tourism Circus - same Oxford - now +25c per tech (was +75) Oracle - now 400c/400s (Was 500s/500c)

Fully agree, good step. Maybe you could do the same with the Spy National Wonder? It's yields are so op.

Tradition Returned +2 happy on capital for opener Progress Expertise - now +10c per building (was +15) Equality - now +1 happy per 10 (was 8) citizens Authority Imperium - now +40s/c from founding/conquest (was 30) Tribute - now +30c from tribute (was +25)

I think +1 for Tradition would be enough, but it's minor.
The change in Equality is good, +happiness in each city AND unhappiness reduction is still strong.
I don't think there is a need for increasing yields with authority, especially after you already have decreased the culture gain for progress, which already would bring back the balance.

India Naga - prereq tech now gunpowder, RCS 33 (was 35), CS 28 (was 30)

Good decision, still strong but not as op as it was before.

Settlers require a minimum city size of 4 before they can be built Settler production cost scales a bit more, and also scales based on the # of cities in your empire (uses empire scaler value), so more cities = more

The first decision is brilliant. Really.
But Iam not that happy about the second thing, but let's see first how much impact it will have.

Happiness Faith and gold purchases now affected by local unhappiness Settler cost now affected by local unhappiness Ratio metric modified - now a +/- 50% ratio instead of 100% to 0% Anything above 50% is 'stable' and normal 35-49% is unhappy 20-34% is very unhappy 0%-19% is super unhappy Feedback a little easier for people to see this way (as you can watch value creep down from 100% towards 50%) Also makes a bit more sense - if over 50% of your people like you, your empire is majority stable! Empire modifier now 10% (was 5%) Tech base modifier now 150% (was 100%) Pop modifier now -100% (was -50%) Boredom scaler now 20 (was 50) Illiteracy scaler now 40 (was 50) Poverty scaler now 60 (was 50) Distress scaler now 80 (was 60) What these mean - citizens are less sensitive to yield differences for distress than boredom, on that spectrum Should see a greater variety of unhappiness in cities

Happiness also impacting purchase cost and settler cost is a very good move.
But 10% empire modificator seems to go too far, this change looks extremely in favor for tall play. Iam open to test, if the increased pop modifier is able to compensate that, but Iam sceptical.

Are you aware that a human is able to deactivate specialists to remove unhappiness in the city, purchase a unit and then relocate the citizens back to the specialist slots to avoid extra cost by unhappiness?

 

[Recursive]

My tradition capital was size 5, then went down to size 4 after producing a settler. This ain't right eh?

Settlers appear to swallow a population when made, might be an undocumented change.

This has the rather curious effect that you would rather build settlers in barely maturing cities with 4 pop than smash them out quickly in very large cities, since it'll take longer and be more disruptive for the large cities to regrow.

If a city loses 1 pop for producing a settler (which makes a whole lot of sense), then the city size requirement can be lowered.

    if (MOD_BALANCE_CORE_HAPPINESS_NATIONAL)
    {
        if (pUnit->getUnitInfo().IsFoodProduction() && getPopulation() > 1)
            changePopulation(-1);
    }

Appears to be intentional but undocumented. So, like in Civ VI then...this should be interesting.

 

[balinte]

Id prefer if Great Admirals wouldnt lose a charge, but instead lose your ability to discover new luxories when you first heal your fleet, and keep the 2 repair fleet charges.
Because I think now discovering a new luxory > a single fleet repair

 

[andersw]

I don't like this. Some capitals can take a very long time to reach 4 population (for example beginning in a plains forest). I think the other changes would get the job done.

Yep 4 pop in a low food start will likely force tradition opener.

Settler cost now affected by local unhappiness

I prefer to build settlers in captured cities and resettle, in particular the smaller cities, this will take forever if the city even have 4 pop left after capture.
Looks like I need to rethink my early game.

 

[balinte]

Also on a side note I dont know how often you guys use "convert science/culture" but I think they are kinda OP
Not being the best player on my last immortal game I was like 15 techs ahead of the AI
But I dont play too many games so my experience could be misleading
Also might be wrong thread, sry in that case

 

[pineappledan]

Interesting patch. I like the idea of scaling settler production based on local unhappiness and num cities, but was the initial settler made cheaper, to make room for the scaling at least? Seems like there should be a break even point at around your 3rd settler.

Naga - prereq tech now gunpowder, RCS 33 (was 35), CS 28 (was 30

Can you explain the choice of Gunpowder, rather than astronomy please? While the bigger issue was moving Naga off of Chemistry, Astronomy seems like the better choice to me:

• Naga malla doesn't use a gun in its attack animation
• Ottomans Janissary is already moved from metallurgy to Gunpowder, so it would preserve a difference between the two civs
• Incentivizing India, the most passive civ, to rush one of the single most militaristic techs on the tree seems really strange. It's like you're pushing even more explicitly for players to just go nuts with all their newly upgraded tercios/cannons/nagas. This makes sense for Ottomans, a highly aggressive civ, but far less for India.
• I would argue India wanting to rush Astronomy makes more sense from a role-play perspective than gunpowder, though India made terrific contributions to both fields.

 

[hcsucker]

Any word on the multiplayer stability of this version?

 

[ridjack]

Faith and gold purchases now affected by local unhappiness

Does this affect investing?

My hot take either way that I don't like this, particularly while we're struggling so much to balance happiness as it is. It feels like a bad idea to have more things affected by it when it's still volatile. We'll see, though.

 

[Rekk]

Ethiopia
    Fixed accidental removal of +1f on strategics

Accidental? Wasn't this a suggested balance change to reduce Ethiopia's faith output slightly, decluttering the UA at the same time?

 

[andersw]

Accidental? Want this a suggest balance change to reduce Ethiopia's faith output slightly, decluttering the UA at the same time?

I have a vague memory of that as well.

Edit:
From Pinappledan in the Ethiopia Leader thread:

I would start with removing the +1 on strategics. I don't get it. It's a delayed until you discover horses/iron, and then it's only 0-3 in the early game, on a civ where everything is otherwise very consistent. It's not necessary and it isn't making enough of a difference to the early faith race to matter. Dropping it would simplify the UA text, refocus the civ on self-contained, consistent bonuses with no map dependence.

 

[Txurce]

Hey all,

New beta inbound, based on feedback.

General
    Bugfixes and performance improvements
    Continued text tweaks and adjustments
 
Balance
    Buildings/Wonders
        Instant yield 'one shot' bonuses from buildings no longer scale with Era
        Adjusted instant yield values for buildings affected by this:
            Stadium - now 1000 GAP
            Zoo - now 400 Tourism
            Circus - same
        Oxford - now +25c per tech (was +75)
        Oracle - now 400c/400s (Was 500s/500c)
    Policies
        Tradition
            Returned +2 happy on capital for opener
        Progress
            Expertise - now +10c per building (was +15)
            Equality - now +1 happy per 10 (was 8) citizens
        Authority
            Imperium - now +40s/c from founding/conquest (was 30)
            Tribute - now +30c from tribute (was +25)
    Difficulty
        Removed some free starting capital happiness from each difficulty level (2 from easier, 1 from harder)
    Civs
        Venice
            Merchant now has move of 4
        Ethiopia
            Fixed accidental removal of +1f on strategics
        India
            Naga - prereq tech now gunpowder, RCS 33 (was 35), CS 28 (was 30)
    Units
        Admiral now 1 charge (was 2)
        Settlers require a minimum city size of 4 before they can be built
        Settler production cost scales a bit more, and also scales based on the # of cities in your empire (uses empire scaler value), so more cities = more expensive settlers. Settle wisely!
    Resources
        Now +2 happy per resource flat (was 3)
            Scaler is now +1 happy per lux per every 5 cities (was 4)
    Happiness
        Faith and gold purchases now affected by local unhappiness
        Settler cost now affected by local unhappiness
        Ratio metric modified - now a +/- 50% ratio instead of 100% to 0%
            Anything above 50% is 'stable' and normal
                35-49% is unhappy
                20-34% is very unhappy
                0%-19% is super unhappy
            Feedback a little easier for people to see this way (as you can watch value creep down from 100% towards 50%)
            Also makes a bit more sense - if over 50% of your people like you, your empire is majority stable!
        Empire modifier now 10% (was 5%)
        Tech base modifier now 150% (was 100%)
        Pop modifier now -100% (was -50%)
        Boredom scaler now 20 (was 50)
        Illiteracy scaler now 40 (was 50)
        Poverty scaler now 60 (was 50)
        Distress scaler now 80 (was 60)
            What these mean - citizens are less sensitive to yield differences for distress than boredom, on that spectrum
            Should see a greater variety of unhappiness in cities[/QUOTE]

I like everything that's estimable without playing, and can't wait to try. I particularly like small unexpected changes like the admiral's loss of one charge, which was effectively a human exploit, and the addition of a move to the MoV.

I also like a city needing 4 citizens to build a settler. For every scenario in which this hurts a certain start, there's a scenario where building at 3 unfairly helps other starts. This is a direct method of slowing down Progress. If the balance betwen the policies winds up being too harsh toward Progress, I would consider adjusting any of the other changes (including losing a pop upon building a settler), rather than the size requirement.

In my opinion, choosing a starting policy shouldn't be so influenced by settler-build rate, anyway — it should be about which tree is better for tall, wide, war, etc.

 

[pineappledan]

Accidental? Wasn't this a suggested balance change to reduce Ethiopia's faith output slightly, decluttering the UA at the same time?

It wasn't accidental. It's there in the 07-17 patch notes:

       Ethiopia:
            UA: removed +1 faith on SR
            UB: culture mod now 25% (was 33%), faith yield now +2 (was +3)

G didn't update the UA text though, and some players pointed out that the UA says it gives +1 to SRs, but doesn't.

So G either forgot that was an intentional change and, in his confusion, restored the +1 on SRs rather than change the text, or he decided he didn't like dropping the +1 on SRs after all and reverted it.
Either way, +1 on SRs is back:

INSERT INTO Trait_YieldChangesStrategicResources
    (TraitType, YieldType, Yield)
VALUES
    ('TRAIT_BONUS_AGAINST_TECH', 'YIELD_FAITH', 1);