New Beta Version - August 5th (8-5)

[CrazyG]

Earlier you mentioned slow AI growth on Deity. After some adjustments (and a bugfix), I'm seeing size 24 capitals on average on turn 200 and an average tech unlock of 37 techs. Does that seem more in line with Deity before these recent patches?

G

It is funny, I was writing about my current game on turn 200, where Korea has a 14 population capital, and my spy can see that he is working 14 specialists. What made this extra great was he had several GPTI that weren't used, and I've watched him put down two more since I got my spy.

20 pop sounds a lot better.

 

[pineappledan]

Usually if you immediately rush bronze working and get 3 spearmen, you can tribute a CS, then use that gold to buy one more, then heavy tribute the rest. You shouldn't have negative GPT at just 4 or 5 units.

Now rushing bronze working is unappealing for a lot of reasons, which is why I LOVE the Celts and the Aztec. Even with a normal civ, heavy tribute will more than make up for the loss (especially if you can get science from a militaristic city state). You can use horsemen too, but it is a bit slower. I usually just stop playing or reroll if my start is too good for tribute though, an extra 80 culture from 3 cultural CS every 20 turns makes the game a little too easy. And sometimes you get a free religion, or several free techs, or some free wonders (I say free because it really doesn't very much cost to do it.)

That’s why u the deity player and I’m not. Maybe what I’m trying to say is that a tribute strategy shouldn’t demand the brutal efficiency of a deity player to be rewarding? Us plebs want to bully people too!

 

[Deljade]

I know the deity playerbase is significant but please let's not balance just for them. It's a fact that emperor AI also fails on growth (right? At least in every of my recent games they did)
We emperor players still like a challenge just with the leeway to do a few weird or questionable things. Though I do consider moving up to immortal for a change : )

 

[Asterix Rage]

VP(8-5)
Promotion Overrun (Level 4) is now Flanking bonus +10% only
Is it a mistake or what? The worst promotion ever imo

 

[CrazyG]

That’s why u the deity player and I’m not. Maybe what I’m trying to say is that a tribute strategy shouldn’t demand the brutal efficiency of a deity player to be rewarding? Us plebs want to bully people too!

This is actually part of why I don't like the current tribute mechanics that much. The require a pretty intense knowledge of the system which the game doesn't ever inform you of (for instance, how far away does your military need to be?), and the swing is huge for heavy tribute.

For reference, tributing gold is comparable to finding gold in ruins, on average its actually lower. Heavy tributing culture is equivalent to more than 5 culture ruins. You can repeat tribute in cycles of about 20 turns, so if you begin next to science or culture CS, the difference can be like 5 techs and 2 social policies.

 

[DeAnno]

(for instance, how far away does your military need to be?)

How far away does it need to be these days? I remember it switched to tile movecost at one point, and water seems to work even for land units (I think even in one case when I didn't have fishing, though I don't remember too well)

Some kind of tooltip for this would be a great QOL change.

 

[Txurce]

This is actually part of why I don't like the current tribute mechanics that much. The require a pretty intense knowledge of the system which the game doesn't ever inform you of (for instance, how far away does your military need to be?), and the swing is huge for heavy tribute.

For reference, tributing gold is comparable to finding gold in ruins, on average its actually lower. Heavy tributing culture is equivalent to more than 5 culture ruins. You can repeat tribute in cycles of about 20 turns, so if you begin next to science or culture CS, the difference can be like 5 techs and 2 social policies.

Do you have to be a Deity player to excel at heavy tribute, or just a detail-oriented person who tests the number and distance, writes it down, and auto-tributes from then on? I think it's the latter. The point here, as in a lot of other VP conversations, is that there's no rule book. THAT is what's needed, in my opinion, rather than a different tribute system. I'm looking forward to gold mostly for this reason: the gradual creation of Wikipedia articles that will organically form a rulebook.

 

[Stalker0]

Currently 208 turns into my current game, and I haven't cracked 50% happiness once. I have just built 4 public works....still can't hit 50. Yeah...happiness is mighty tough right now for Authority.

 

[CrazyG]

How far away does it need to be these days? I remember it switched to tile movecost at one point, and water seems to work even for land units (I think even in one case when I didn't have fishing, though I don't remember too well)

I have no clue whatsoever how it works. I just move one unit at a time, and after unit moved, I check if my intimidation number changed, and for some reason embarked units are scarier than other units.

It used to be within 6 tiles of the city, which I thought was a really clear and easy to use system which I would much prefer.

Do you have to be a Deity player to excel at heavy tribute, or just a detail-oriented person who tests the number and distance, writes it down, and auto-tributes from then on? I think it's the latter.

What does Deity level player mean here? My deity opinion on how to tribute, would be to dance around with 3 spearmen until the CS turns orange. If someone who is detail oriented can figure out what the pattern is (I sure can't), please share.

Guys, literally anyone can click Bronze working immediately and get 3 spearmen out. The build order is monument-shrine-warrior (sometimes a second warrior), then spearmen. Just make sure you save gold to upgrade the warriors. It is even easier with Aztec (jaguars only have 1 less CS than spears do). Reroll your start until you get a mining luxury if you want it to be really strong.

 

[CrazyG]

Lost a game yesterday (Poland, Deity, Continents), I attempted a science victory but gave up after I lost all CS allies and was at war with most of the world. Progress-Fealty-Rationalism-Freedom, my religion gave me gold and science. I wanted to share my thoughts on my own feedback, as well as the comments of others

Spoiler Early Social Policies :

Authority is overall very strong but wide happiness is tough, which makes large scale conquest tough. If you do a lot of conquering you probably need to lock growth, and ideally your religion gives happiness. Puppet cities suck, which is part of the problem.

Progress is probably about where it should be, I don't think any changes are necessary.

Tradition has a really awkward early game, but it's quite strong if you can get past that. It is actually the best at just recklessly spamming settlers to claim land, but it suffers from poor early culture and science. It isn't always bad, there are defiantly starts it can do well on, it just awkward.

Spoiler Other Social Policies :

The middle three are all pickable, but Fealty is overall the best and Statecraft is the most niche. I wish there was more happiness in all them.

In the late policies, imperialism just seems better than the others. Frigate conquest is a great strategy, probably overall the easiest and most consistent way to beat the AI, and imperialism just supports it so well. Rationalism has a pointlessly large amount of food which will kill you if you don't plan to lock growth. Industry worked well with pioneers, which are terrible.

On that note, pioneers make the game much easier because pretty much every AI will build one. Korea and I both had the Porcelain Tower's technology, luckily for me he choose to build a pioneer instead (which somehow cost more production). On the note of late wonders, I research industrialization before anyone build the Cathedral of St. Basil.

Spoiler Happiness :

During the early game land grabs, Happiness is about right. I just accepted -25% growth for unhappiness as a feature of the Classical Era, by medieval I was positive and I hit 100% during golden ages. That collapsed in the industrial era when the golden ages ended. At this point I went back to managing the cities myself, and I picked Rationalism as an experiment to try a science victory, which is probably when I lost the game.

I had unhappy cities even at like 80% total happiness. I have 3 cities who constantly sit at 3-4 unhappiness, even with the same infrastructure as all the other cities, and the growth penalty is really noticeable. I really dislike the penalty for building military units (and adding gold buying penalties did not address this at all). At 48% happiness, several of my cities had more than a 70% production penalty to military units. The only building available was a zoo.

My unhappiness was mostly boredom and poverty, even with thrift. I had 0 illiteracy (probably because scholarship + jesuit education), and I noticed that museums help with illiteracy, not boredom, which hurt. The only way I could reduce boredom was an outright -1 boredom, working more culture or building a culture building such as an amphitheater did not a single time take away a point of boredom. I had no distress for most of the game.

After a few landmarks and a great admiral luxury I was positive again, but probably should have locked growth in every city but the capital (my largest non-capital city was 18 population at this moment). Coastal cities are way more unhappy than inland cities, mostly distress. My capital and my only inland city had 0 distress past the very early game despite being much larger in population that the coastal cities.

IDK exactly what should happen, but happiness is really hard around turn 200 which is frankly exactly when it should be easy for enjoyable gameplay.

 

[crdvis16]

The AI definitely seems weaker to me with this patch for whatever reason. I'm playing Sweden on deity and I'm noticing a few things:

1) Wonders just sit around unclaimed forever. Statue of Zeus finally got built on turn 89. I went wheel-pottery-calender and then mining-bronzeworking and could have easily built it way before turn 89. In previous patches on deity my impression was usually that you had to beeline and rush for wonders to get them but now it feels like I could build any of them on a whim. If I wanted SoZ in past patches I would go mining-bronze immediately and build it the second I had the policy count to make sure I got it. I'm purposely not building wonders in this patch because it feels exploitive or something.

2) The AI is slow with teching. In my current game I've largely de-prioritized councils and writing and yet I'm still somehow equal to the AI in tech in the early game. I went authority so my science is fairly limited. The science on kills has been negligible as that is the 3rd policy I unlocked and I haven't really done much warring so far. I settled 2 cities and conquered a city state for the bonus science from Imperium but I'm surprised that has largely kept me competitive. I haven't prioritized science in any big way and yet I'm easily keeping up when in past patches I would expect to be behind (especially Korea who is in my game). It just feels easy.

3) Ditto with policies- I'm fairly easily keeping up even with limited sources of culture. I've gotten a good number of barbarian camps but haven't tributed a single culture CS (I did tribute for production, food, and gold roughly 5-6 times though). Also got culture from Imperium x3. If I had a nearby culture CS I think I'd easily be ahead rather than just equal. Again- it just feels too easy. In past patches I think I'd be slightly behind with this start until I could start conquering.

My lux monopoly is tobacco so I'm gold/faith rich but that's not an explanation for how easy tech/policies are coming in.

I don't really think authority is the problem. I've played plenty of authority deity recently and it was never this easy. It just feels like the deity AI has been knocked down a level or two. Maybe the AI is struggling with the recent changes for some reason?

 

[John.B.C]

Well the thing is, when going for a wonder one has to slow down expansion alot thus "so what if grabbing whatever wonder?", I often find that I would lose to much time expanding and grabbing a religion - if this is to be prioritizied.

What about religion? I find grabbing one much much harder now... since it takes forever to get those settlers out (the AI doesn't struggle here). In the game I'm playing now I first built shrine + market (+3 faith) in every city - also investing in all (I even beelined trade). I even had 3 faith from a city state for about 15 turns). Even so, at turn 95 (5 cities) all religions was grabbed and I had 12 turns more to go! Again, one might be able to grab whatever wonder (Though I don't always share this experience even if it usually takes more time before wonders are built) , BUT I probably shouldn't have built Petra in my game (as morocco), since it slowed me down; maybe if I hadn't had built it I would have gotten myself a religion?

Grabbing a religion with some pantheons might be impossible as it is now; or maybe I'm just doing something awfully wrong during the expansion phase?

Spoiler turn 95 :

How do you guys grab those religions?

 

[Ziad]

I feel the game puts a lot more emphasis on empire-building... effectively increasing difficulty, so the AI being a bit less heavy-handed balances it out a bit for those who don't play at the optimal level. (Personally I roleplay the civilization a lot based on history and game events)

Still, the changes are significant enough that the AI needs to be trained with it I think.

 

[crdvis16]

Well the thing is, when going for a wonder one has to slow down expansion alot thus "so what if grabbing whatever wonder?", I often find that I would lose to much time expanding and grabbing a religion - if this is to be prioritizied.

What about religion? I find grabbing one much much harder now... since it takes forever to get those settlers out (the AI doesn't struggle here). In the game I'm playing now I first built shrine + market (+3 faith) in every city - also investing in all (I even beelined trade). I even had 3 faith from a city state for about 15 turns). Even so, at turn 95 (5 cities) all religions was grabbed and I had 12 turns more to go! Again, one might be able to grab whatever wonder (Though I don't always share this experience even if it usually takes more time before wonders are built) , BUT I probably shouldn't have built Petra in my game (as morocco), since it slowed me down; maybe if I hadn't had built it I would have gotten myself a religion?

Grabbing a religion with some pantheons might be impossible as it is now; or maybe I'm just doing something awfully wrong during the expansion phase?

Spoiler turn 95 :

View attachment 532902

How do you guys grab those religions?

I think Goddess of Springtime is maybe just not great for founding. It takes some time to get to markets. You probably would have been better off with Spirit of the Desert which would start giving faith as soon as your workers improved desert resources/luxes. There are a number of pantheons that aren't great for founding unless the civ you're playing works with that pantheon well or has innate faith bonuses to more easily found.

 

[John.B.C]

I think Goddess of Springtime is maybe just not great for founding. It takes some time to get to markets. You probably would have been better off with Spirit of the Desert which would start giving faith as soon as your workers improved desert resources/luxes. There are a number of pantheons that aren't great for founding unless the civ you're playing works with that pantheon well or has innate faith bonuses to more easily found.

Well, my first market I think would have been completed in the very same moment as one spirit of the dersert tile (that is if I hadn't managed to prepare "3 tiles" even before I got the pantheon [which would have been impossible]. That's 3 faith compared to 1 faith, don't forget all the workers needed, and all the land that would had to be bought for such an enterprise.

Acctually, I think spirit of the desert probably is one of those pantheons, "currently" close to impossible to found with - due to the slower expansion pace.

In my own case failing to found a religion, it has to have had something to do with my "build order". Something slowed me down too much.

Btw, on the matter of the AI deelaying wonders, pyramids was built in 2200 b.c. which is pretty early (it doesn't change the fact that some wonders often are deelayed, but it's quite random I'd say and looking at my current game [a replay of the last one; trying for the religion], they are building wonders like crazy] ).

 

[Noob Fanboy]

I think in your game goddess of fertility was a good option. You can just go mining first, grab a shrine - monument - well -> settler spam.

 

[Legen]

The AI definitely seems weaker to me with this patch for whatever reason. I'm playing Sweden on deity and I'm noticing a few things:

1) Wonders just sit around unclaimed forever. Statue of Zeus finally got built on turn 89. I went wheel-pottery-calender and then mining-bronzeworking and could have easily built it way before turn 89. In previous patches on deity my impression was usually that you had to beeline and rush for wonders to get them but now it feels like I could build any of them on a whim. If I wanted SoZ in past patches I would go mining-bronze immediately and build it the second I had the policy count to make sure I got it. I'm purposely not building wonders in this patch because it feels exploitive or something.

2) The AI is slow with teching. In my current game I've largely de-prioritized councils and writing and yet I'm still somehow equal to the AI in tech in the early game. I went authority so my science is fairly limited. The science on kills has been negligible as that is the 3rd policy I unlocked and I haven't really done much warring so far. I settled 2 cities and conquered a city state for the bonus science from Imperium but I'm surprised that has largely kept me competitive. I haven't prioritized science in any big way and yet I'm easily keeping up when in past patches I would expect to be behind (especially Korea who is in my game). It just feels easy.

3) Ditto with policies- I'm fairly easily keeping up even with limited sources of culture. I've gotten a good number of barbarian camps but haven't tributed a single culture CS (I did tribute for production, food, and gold roughly 5-6 times though). Also got culture from Imperium x3. If I had a nearby culture CS I think I'd easily be ahead rather than just equal. Again- it just feels too easy. In past patches I think I'd be slightly behind with this start until I could start conquering.

My lux monopoly is tobacco so I'm gold/faith rich but that's not an explanation for how easy tech/policies are coming in.

I don't really think authority is the problem. I've played plenty of authority deity recently and it was never this easy. It just feels like the deity AI has been knocked down a level or two. Maybe the AI is struggling with the recent changes for some reason?

My impression is that, with settling and happiness being much slower and punishing, the AI can't use the handicap bonuses as a way to get an early snowball against human players anymore. The AI handicap bonuses rely a lot on gaining cities; in a way, all AIs play like China. That's why the AI is easier to deal with in this patch.

I actually like that, Immortal and Deity were about catching up with the AI's early snowball, much like the vanilla Civ V. I prefer the AI bonuses spread over the ages instead. Thing is, the lategame isn't better for the AI, and any lategame benefit the AI may have gotten from this patch isn't making up for the loss of the early snowball vs humans.

About wonders, they slow expansion a lot, and it's already quite slow. The AI is likely dealing with a much harder choice between settling (and its handicap bonuses) and building wonders. It seems they are favoring the former, for now.

 

[Ayana the Pale]

Is anyone having issues where their game crashes around turn 220-230? I've had it happen in every game I've played since I installed the patch before this one (the problem persisted through the update). It's persisted through different civs and always centers on one of the AI players - I was able to solve it in one game by deleting that civ from an active game (i.e. I used the 'kill' command in In-Game Editor), but that's still a pretty sucky solution given that by 220 civs are usually an established presence in the game.

For a little more detail - around this point in the game I'll hit 'next turn' and while it goes to one AI's turn the game will instantly crash. It's always the same AI, doesn't seem to be consistent for same civs (i.e. it happened for India one game, Mongolia the next, etc.). I've seen similar problems online but the solutions didn't work, and I'm wondering if anyone here is having similar problems/has any recommendations.

 

[CrazyG]

The wonders thing, yes some wonders do get built a normal speed, usually like 1 per era, while others take a long time. It isn't just about AI expansion either, wonders in the medieval era are also sitting around for a long time. Wonders are just a benchmark to show how slowed down the AI is. For reference, I began the Renaissance before any of the AI had their 8th social policy in my last game (I had 9, but I was Poland). Also, me reaching the Renaissance and Industrial era before the AI without playing a science civ. My last Ottomans game, I had gunpowder before neighbors had steel, janissaries against spearmen.

Well, my first market I think would have been completed in the very same moment as one spirit of the dersert tile (that is if I hadn't managed to prepare "3 tiles" even before I got the pantheon [which would have been impossible]. That's 3 faith compared to 1 faith, don't forget all the workers needed, and all the land that would had to be bought for such an enterprise.

Spirit of the desert doesn't need the tile to be connected by a worker. I think you probably could have built your settlers a lot faster.

 

[JamesNinelives]

I just finished up a game, thought I'd let y'all know how it went.

I got to turn 457 before quitting. I found the game pretty balanced overall. I encountered several challenges before I was able to make it to the top, including my neighbour America spreading their religion to everyone else on the continent. The Goddess of War pantheon seemed to do really well for them as they founded the first religion. Not to mention they bought some of my territory with their 'manifest destiny' ability which was rather frustrating (so I went to war).

I quit before playing all the way through because I made a relatively large mistake - after capturing and razing two of their cities I accepted a peace treaty - not realising that it included vassalizing them. Not that having vassals is a bad thing at all, but basically the world decided at that point that I was a big threat and in spite of my efforts to buy votes I got sanctioned by the world congress. I'm prettty confident I would be able to do just fine from here as I was leading in most areas, but I also know that people are more likely to declare war against you when sanctioned and given how many civs are annoyed at me at the moment I really didn't want to slog my way through that end game.

However! I was quite proud of my diplomacy in most other areas - I managed to get a few defensive pacts which normally I find the AI is loath to agree to. And in spite of pioneers taking 15-19 turns to build even in my well-developed cities I still managed to settle some nice islands to the south, bagging me 7 coal in one instance and 3 coal and some coral in another. I am very much enjoying the Goddess of Love pantheon and managed to found I think the third religion. Founding was delayed in general, as was wonder construction as others have noted. Happiness went up and down between 50% and 100%. I remember struggling with poverty before I unlocked trading posts at which point things got a bit easier. Golden ages made a huge different to happiness - perhaps a little too much? Going from 100% to 60% in one turn because your golden age has ended is a bit of a shock.

Overall things mostly felt appropriately challenging without actually being impossible though.

Spoiler Screenshot :