pineappledan
Deity
That’s why I made I used that boost to only give +8% (25% increased to 33% yield conversion). That’s still +32%
when working process
when working process
New Beta Version - December 1st (12-1)
- Thread starter Gazebo
- Start date
- Status
I'm very happy with this change log. It seems to address the majority of the major concerns recently in one form or another. Hehe especially....
GDR now on
Robotics -- ROBOT!
Gained 'Titan' promotion: +100HP -- GIANT
, +25% attack -- DEATH!
, free ranged shot before melee -- FREAKING LASER BEAM!
This truly looks like a powerhouse of a unit, hehe its probably now too powerful but honestly its hard to go too strong so late in the game, you need a unit with staying power and this may do the job.
GDR now on
Robotics -- ROBOT!
Gained 'Titan' promotion: +100HP -- GIANT
, +25% attack -- DEATH!
, free ranged shot before melee -- FREAKING LASER BEAM!
This truly looks like a powerhouse of a unit, hehe its probably now too powerful but honestly its hard to go too strong so late in the game, you need a unit with staying power and this may do the job.
I agree with PAD. If I look at my traditional Order picks, the only thing these buffs increase is 5 year plan (which was never amazing but was an alright pick for tier 2 in some cases, now its just solid).
So I think these buffs will shake up which policies people get when playing order, but I don't think it dramatically strengthens the tree as a whole.
civplayer33
King
- Joined
- Sep 11, 2017
- Messages
- 965
I noticed that when the AI asks to renew a lapsed DoF, the duration seems to not scale with game speed anymore (75 turns on Epic for new DoF, but only 50 turns for renewed one)...is this some new feature you introduced @HeathcliffWarriors or otherwise intentional or should I report to GitHub?
Asterix Rage
Warlord
- Joined
- Jun 6, 2010
- Messages
- 1,585
A such OP unit shouldn't be an upgrade from Modern Armor IMO
That's a bug, thanks for pointing it out. I'll fix for next version.
Will also aim to fix the broken coop war counter by then.
Note that its a pretty long tech path to get from modern armor to GDR. If you have done that...you are literally handfuls of turns from the end.
pineappledan
Deity
Will there be some relief for poor Germany in the next patch?
JamesNinelives
Emperor
This doesn't apply to most people, but I think it's worth mentioning that on slower game speeds the GDR has the opportunity to have a much greater impact. I'm happy to playtest and see how things go though!
DoF counter should now scale properly, but I'm not super familiar with LUA, there's a chance you may get a visual error, e.g. Friends with Egypt (-15). If this happens, let me know or post on Github, but it'll be a display error only.
Working on coop war counter next.
pineappledan
Deity
Next patch wishlist:
CV, or to power through the tech tree by putting all your non-core cities on 
processes while your 2-3 core cities work on spaceship parts. Its the one boost in the bunch which most directly can be aimed at a launch at a targeted victory condition. 6 yields on all your land/water tiles is very good, but it's not so precisely game-winning as +100% towards processes
- Fix to Goddess of Springtime (lower herbalist to 1
1, change plantation to 12
or 1
) and God of Craftsmen (Increase Quarries/Stoneworks to 21 and reduce monuments to 11
) to make them viable founding pantheons - Some compensation for Germany now that all his toys got taken away (Trades with friends as if they are Allies, WC votes on both Friends & Allies)
- A more modest Process boost given to all plants. Solar Plants changed from Process Booster plant to another focus (maybe 1 on all tiles or % modifier in addition to % modifier, or big yieldsperXterrain that gives big bonus for all flat tiles in radius of city without having to work them)
CV, or to power through the tech tree by putting all your non-core cities on processes while your 2-3 core cities work on spaceship parts. Its the one boost in the bunch which most directly can be aimed at a launch at a targeted victory condition. 6 yields on all your land/water tiles is very good, but it's not so precisely game-winning as +100% towards processes
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Next patch wishlist:
I think the process boost is going to be very hard to get right w.r.t. relative balance to the other plants. It's potentially a very powerful boost if a player is only looking to lock down that last 1/2 policies to clinch a
- Fix to Goddess of Springtime (lower herbalist to 1
- Some compensation for Germany now that all his toys got taken away (Trades with friends as if they are Allies, WC votes on both Friends & Allies)
- A more modest Process boost given to all plants. Solar Plants changed from Process Booster plant to another focus (maybe 1
Keep in mind that the bonus to processes only applies while running the process - it's only on when it is used, thus the cities using it are locked down from doing other things.
G
pineappledan
Deity
Yes I know how processes work.
perhaps something you aren’t considering though? If you have nuclear plants giving 25% GP rate, but you have solar plants giving +25 to processes, solar plant has the stronger GP boost.
with national monument, garden, artistry, tradition, and rationalism, and leaning tower, you could get a potential GScientist modifier of +183%. A genuinely GP focused CiV could have +100GP rate in its capital and an additional 25% is small. Nuclear doesn’t give you GPs 25% faster. At best it gives you 10% faster, much lower if you actually care about GPs and have made the relevant policy investments.
compare that to the same player who gets a solar plant. They can run the relevant boosted process for 5 turns and get a 10-20% larger bulb on your next GScientist or GWriter, which you might have faith purchased. That’s very powerful, and much more controlled than the GP rate, and it only boosts the GP that you actually care about. A GP rate boost almost guaranteed will not get you more GPs, it will only get you them a few turns earlier.
The nuclear plant just doesn’t look that powerful to me. The other plants get 6 yields on terrain and nuclear gets 2 on specialist, and you’re always going to have more citizens on the tiles than on specialist slots. That 25% GP rate is supposed to make the difference between those 4 yields per tile in addition to a uranium? I don’t see it. Solar gives you the ability to double your process output, only for the yield that you care about. When you’re trying to win, that’s very strong even if it’s not the same total number of yields.
perhaps something you aren’t considering though? If you have nuclear plants giving 25% GP rate, but you have solar plants giving +25 to processes, solar plant has the stronger GP boost.
with national monument, garden, artistry, tradition, and rationalism, and leaning tower, you could get a potential GScientist modifier of +183%. A genuinely GP focused CiV could have +100GP rate in its capital and an additional 25% is small. Nuclear doesn’t give you GPs 25% faster. At best it gives you 10% faster, much lower if you actually care about GPs and have made the relevant policy investments.
compare that to the same player who gets a solar plant. They can run the relevant boosted process for 5 turns and get a 10-20% larger bulb on your next GScientist or GWriter, which you might have faith purchased. That’s very powerful, and much more controlled than the GP rate, and it only boosts the GP that you actually care about. A GP rate boost almost guaranteed will not get you more GPs, it will only get you them a few turns earlier.
The nuclear plant just doesn’t look that powerful to me. The other plants get 6 yields on terrain and nuclear gets 2 on specialist, and you’re always going to have more citizens on the tiles than on specialist slots. That 25% GP rate is supposed to make the difference between those 4 yields per tile in addition to a uranium? I don’t see it. Solar gives you the ability to double your process output, only for the yield that you care about. When you’re trying to win, that’s very strong even if it’s not the same total number of yields.
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Tugboatspotter
Warlord
- Joined
- Dec 19, 2019
- Messages
- 278
Sub on Nuclear Fission
Battleship on Nuclear Fission
I don't like these changes for thematic reasons. I understand these are balance changes but it just seems so wrong.
I feel there is too much drift away from realism for balance reasons. I would rather see things where they make more sense.
Battleship on Nuclear Fission
I don't like these changes for thematic reasons. I understand these are balance changes but it just seems so wrong.
I feel there is too much drift away from realism for balance reasons. I would rather see things where they make more sense.
In the solar plant case you're spending 5 turns not building anything though- that's potentially a big downside that has to be accounted for in the comparison. I don't often spend time working processes in my games (maybe others do?). Usually only in the very late game where some cities have maybe finished building everything I need and I'm just trying to speed up science for some important tech. Otherwise I almost always have something I want to build and don't want to spend 5 turns not building.
pineappledan
Deity
I do, because what else are they going to do? At that point, if I need to invest >1000 hammers into a building for 10-30 turns of benefit, from that building. If I need units to defend myself or kill someone I need them yesterday, so I'm just going to buy them. And that leaves processes, which just give whatever yield I need and as much of it as I can get. If I need 4 last techs to finish my spaceship or 2 more policies to finish my ideology tree, I need to divert my entire economy towards that goal, and I've probably had all the relevant buildings I care to have that contribute towards that goal (radio towers, research labs, etc.) for a long time now. And even if I didn't, leveraging all my empire's immediate
production into science or culture gives me more of what I need faster than the last 2-3 buildings that contribute relevant yields. This is especially important for cities who are too far away from a defensive front, so they don't need units, but don't have the raw production to finish that last wonder or project I need.If you're going for a diplo victory this is a moot point because none of the plants contribute to a diplo victory particularly well or straightforwardly. You are better off building 2 diplomats and buying a third than investing in a wind/hydro/solar plant if you are needing those last few WC votes. However, an argument could be made that if CERN is part of your diplo plan and you're trying to get to that WC vote quicker, then you will want solar plant cities working
science processes.I'm sure there are thing you Could build, but Should you? If are aren't fending off an existential threat and need units, there isn't much else a 2nd or 3rd tier city could be doing that is better than working a process for the last 20-30 turns.
TL;DR:
In the solar plant case, your cities are doing what is most likely the most valuable use of their time, even if they didn't have a solar plant.
It just occured to me that my last game as Polynesia actually ended before Ecology anyway (or right when it was unlocked maybe) so in that case the power plants wouldn't have been a factor I guess.
I think some of your assumptions might not be universal though. Buying units instead of building them assumes you have plenty of money to do so but many of the situations you might find yourself needing units are the same situations where you might also be poor (war is often rough on your trade routes after all and pillaged ones might need to be rebuilt too). There's plenty of times where I've largely used my gold to upgrade highly promoted units and don't have enough gold to rush buy new units and have to just build them. I'd say that's the norm actually, especially when rush bought units can lose half their starting XP.
I think there are some buildings that can be worthwhile in the late game that give you things that processes can't, too. The tourism buildings for one (stadium and airport), and especially airport for its added mobility benefit. Recycling plant for aluminum for units or spaceship parts. Bomb shelter as insurance.
There's also a bunch of world congress wonders that you're likely to set all of your cities toward.
Between units, those buildings, and world congress wonders it's entirely possible you might not be working processes in secondary cities. Your capital is also likely working wonders on top of that.
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pineappledan
Deity
And you’ll notice none of the things you suggested to build instead is a different plant.
I’m not suggesting you want a plant in every city every game, but if you are going to build a plant, a 25% process boost is better than anything else on offer. Re: airports, based on their tech tree placements, you probably won’t ever be in a situation where you are building both airports and plants before the game ends.
I’m not suggesting you want a plant in every city every game, but if you are going to build a plant, a 25% process boost is better than anything else on offer. Re: airports, based on their tech tree placements, you probably won’t ever be in a situation where you are building both airports and plants before the game ends.
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