New Beta Version - January 3rd (1/3)

[Deadstarre]

Units now scale with empire size in cost (same as buildings)

Clearly i'm in favor of this =) building purchases represent half the hammers and unit purchase the whole hammers though, so they dont scale in exactly the same way right?

What about this, then?

• Herbalist loses food on forest, keeps it on Jungle
• Workshop no longer buffs Jungle
• University/Seowon keep their +1 Science on Jungle

So we'd have Forests getting +1p/g, Jungles getting +1f/s. Makes them distinct and splits up the power spike of the Herbalist/University.

G

it sorta looks right. im worried forest losing early food (that doesnt get replaced later) and its science means im really running short on reasons to not chop it anymore. i suppose if a city was desperate for the hammers i'd still have a reason for it, and itll be weaker overall clearly but thats not really a bad thing. honestly I think thats fine, certainly worth a try =)

 

[Questdog]

Chopping should be near automatic on flatland tiles to make way for farms. No way a forested flatland tile should compare with developed land. There should be a reason to sometimes build a lumbermill on a hill tile over chopping for a mine. In CIV 4, if the hill was on a river, then you could build a lumbermill for +1G/+1F/-1H over a mine. That would not be enough incentive in VP, as gold is not as scarce as hammers. In CIV4, you also had the benefit of health from forests. Also, in vanilla CIV5, a forest only gets 1 food, regardless of the base tile. I do not understand why VP has taken terrain features that were a hindrance to development (Forests and marshes) and turned them into bonus tiles. It makes no sense to me.

 

[pineappledan]

However this pans out, Iroquois are about to get hit by a truck. Could buff the entrepreneurship policy to compensate the happy few that still go for lumber mill

 

[Txurce]

What about this, then?

• Herbalist loses food on forest, keeps it on Jungle
• Workshop no longer buffs Jungle
• University/Seowon keep their +1 Science on Jungle

So we'd have Forests getting +1p/g, Jungles getting +1f/s. Makes them distinct and splits up the power spike of the Herbalist/University.

G

This feels like the right way to go at it, as opposed to making similar changes elsewhere.

 

[Gazebo]

However this pans out, Iroquois are about to get hit by a truck. Could buff the entrepreneurship policy to compensate the happy few that still go for lumber mill

I didn't touch the longhouse, and I don't plan to.

G

 

[Deadstarre]

I just never considered that Jungles needed any nerf at all, they felt fine it was only forests that were too good plus being all over the map, jungle is restricted. and forest can be 2 food or 2 hammer, jungles is ALWAYS 2 food 1 hammer, so removing the hammer from workshop for them might really sting (and they get no hammer from lumbermill)

 

[Funak]

I didn't touch the longhouse, and I don't plan to.

G

Well, either way they lost 1science and 1 tourism on every forest tile


Honestly I'm just going to stay out of this discussion, I've not seen any real problems with the current setup other than maybe that farms should get something to keep up in renaissance or industrial.

 

[pineappledan]

I didn't touch the longhouse, and I don't plan to.

Old forest: 2f 1p
Longhouse: 1f 1p
university: 1s
workshop: 1p1g
zoo: 1 tou
gold increased to 2 in golden age

New forest: 2f 1p
longhouse 1f 1p
university 1s

Iroquois building didn't get directly nerfed, but their heavy reliance on forest tiles won't pay the dividends it used to.

 

[Gazebo]

Well, either way they lost 1science and 1 tourism on every forest tile


Honestly I'm just going to stay out of this discussion, I've not seen any real problems with the current setup other than maybe that farms should get something to keep up in renaissance or industrial.

See Agribusiness change.

Old forest: 2f 1p
Longhouse: 1f 1p
university: 1s
workshop: 1p1g
zoo: 1 tou
gold increased to 2 in golden age

New forest: 2f 1p
longhouse 1f 1p
university 1s

Iroquois building didn't get directly nerfed, but their heavy reliance on forest tiles won't pay the dividends it used to.

Totally, but the Iroquois can take it. They're tippy-top tier with the AI.

G

 

[Deadstarre]

I thought the herbalist losing forest food alone would make enough difference to anyone who thought university/workshop were OP was gonna feel differently when they couldn't grow anymore by working those tiles. but it definitely looks good enough to try to me

I think complaints about the Well being a useless building may be forthcoming tho, will have to see. thinking ahead, i see it as a very low priority for when it unlocks

 

[MorphBer]

Could agree that forests might need a change, I am actually never chopping any of them to create farms unless India. Jungle should not get nerfed imo, it is decent early on but you cannot improve it for a long time and the lumbermill gives gold which is clearly worse then the production on forests.

I am just a bit worried, that we are cutting a lot of yields between this beta and these new proposals (at least thats my feeling) which will obviously have impact on game speed and balace in spots we don't have in mind yet. If we cut bonuses from forests7jungles on herbalists/workshops they should get something in return.

It's like the oracle: it went from arguably the best wonder in the game to pretty crappy (at least what I saw in my first game)

 

[Ziad]

I'm glad VP yields are going down. It was kinda getting out of hand.

If you ever used any other mods you'd end up with some even more ridiculous numbers.

Maybe now I can activate Civic Reform again without feeling like a cheese.

Agreed on Oracle though. It's really bad atm...

 

[pineappledan]

That oracle yield is at the same level as a circus, right? 300 culture?

For a wonder, shouldn't it be at least 3x what I can get from a normal building?

 

[Infixo]

• Tourism
  • Reduced influence TR bonuses slightly
  • Growth now 5/10/15/20/25%
  • Gold now 2/4/6/8/10

Can you explain this a little? What TRs are affected? What are these levels?

I like specialists’ change. And agribussiness.

 

[Ziad]

Tourism gives bonuses to the origin city of each trade route to other civs depending on influence.

Gazebo modified growth and gold bonuses.

 

[hokath]

I think the food on farm from agribusiness is a good idea even without the discussion on forest/jungle since they compare so poorly to the 'new' pasture and plantation tiles, now.

What about this, then?

• Herbalist loses food on forest, keeps it on Jungle
• Workshop no longer buffs Jungle
• University/Seowon keep their +1 Science on Jungle

So we'd have Forests getting +1p/g, Jungles getting +1f/s. Makes them distinct and splits up the power spike of the Herbalist/University.

G

This seems like a good idea. Further differentiation makes life more interesting!

While we're at it, petition to change 'Lumbermill (jungle)' to 'Logging Camp'. I hate those parentheses soooo much.

 

[tu_79]

Oh, my! Each release feels like a different game.

Adding a bit to the forest discussion. Is it hardcoded the production gained by chopping? I say this because if chopping is scaled, maybe there's still the incentive to chopp a tile or two to grab another wonder. Besides, it doesn't make sense to me that with the advances in technology, lumber keeps giving the same amount of production.

But I somewhat agree that a forest tile shouldn't be more productive than a farm. Getting a farm means expending a few turns chopping, while working a forest takes waiting for the right technologies to make them useful.

So what if some of those buildings that previously gave bonuses to forest/jungle, give bonuses for people working on tiles (non specialists).

PS. I see my old suggestion about wells/watermills has taken roots.

 

[lunker]

Actually, I find forests to be pretty weak in comparison to farms. It takes so much time for them to become somewhat useful (still not great) that I just chop them down most of the time.

Meanwhile farms are useful from the moment you start the game all the way to the finish. I regularly see them reach 5+ food while forests take forever to get something like 3 food 3 prod and 1-2 other yields.

 

[LukaSlovenia29]

Jungles are generally worse than forests (building lumbermills on jungles is iirc available later than on forests, jungles with bananas are worse than forests with deer, luxuries on jungles require iron working vs. luxuries on forests (trapping or bronze working)), so I'd support rebalancing in favor of jungles vs. forests.

 

[Gothic_Empire]

I didn't touch the longhouse, and I don't plan to.

G

But it's so lonely.