New Beta Version - January 3rd (1/3)

[ryanmusante]

A word of thanks to you from me. I'm on testing now.

 

[Ziad]

How about making Oracle reduce policy costs by a percentage (fitting with Greece flavor) and modifying Redentor to reduce GA costs instead (fitting Brazil), possibly by reducing the counter multiplier by 1.

Dunno if it's new code or an sql update.

 

[Infixo]

Tourism gives bonuses to the origin city of each trade route to other civs depending on influence.
Gazebo modified growth and gold bonuses.

OK, thx. Do you know by chance where are those parameters in files? I can't find them.

 

[MorphBer]

So I just entered industrial in my game (Emperor,Germany, Authority-Statecraft-Rationalism). I have 6 cities and 2 puppets, I actually feel like I have more gold than before. Not in raw numbers wise, but I actually invest in 80%+ of my buildings and am running out of things to build in every city. But you allready said you adjusted the formula so mybe it is allready fixed.

 

[BiteInTheMark]

Didnt you think you overnerf forest and jungles a bit?
I think, replacing the food for forest/jungles with something else and remove the gold from workshop may do the job.
If forest/jungles never give more food than 2, you have to decide, if you want a universal tile with food, hammer, other stuff, or get enough food to grow.
What if you remove the food from herbalists and give it the ability: 1 gold/culture for every 2 worked jungle/forest tiles. (still one gold maintenance)
And with the remove of the gold from workshops, forest/jungles are the mid of farm/mine.

 

[Lanstro]

I'm in a mid-Medieval game as Shoshone (liberty -> fealty). So far the gold investment changes seem a bit off - investing in buildings is very cheap now, yet gold income is about the same early game, so it's been very easy to build almost every building in my core cities even with the liberty nerfs. I'm dominating this game much harder than usual, though that's also partially due to having a very good start.

The other changes in this patch generally seem fine, and have not been as noticeable as the gold change.

 

[Funak]

See Agribusiness change.

That looks like a very sad building now

 

[MorphBer]

Didnt you think you overnerf forest and jungles a bit?

TBH this is kind of the philosphy of many changes lately, something is op and gets nerfed so much its pretty much garbage (apolestic tradition, oracle, etc.)

 

[Grabbl]

TBH this is kind of the philosphy of many changes lately, something is op and gets nerfed so much its pretty much garbage (apolestic tradition, oracle, etc.)

But it's better than buffing everything... and the examples were clearly at the very strong edge before, and the New Apostolic Tradition is surely no garbage. The Oracle seems a bit overnerfed indeed, but that will equilibrate in the future... the free policy was total OP. .

The proposition to diversify jungles and forests seems good to me, giving them 2 different yield increases. Personally, I would like the tourism on zoos to stay, however, I don't think forests are overpowered for this, and it's good to have a clear wide option for tourism.

 

[MorphBer]

But it's better than buffing everything... and the examples were clearly at the very strong edge before, and the New Apostolic Tradition is surely no garbage. The Oracle seems a bit overnerfed indeed, but that will equilibrate in the future... the free policy was total OP. .

The proposition to diversify jungles and forests seems good to me, giving them 2 different yield increases. Personally, I would like the tourism on zoos to stay, however, I don't think forests are overpowered for this, and it's good to have a clear wide option for tourism.

I didn't say you should buff everything, but honestly it's pretty clear to me, that a wonder is garbage if you cut it's yield by what, 80%, and only compensate with some useless GAP.

 

[CrabHelmet]

Yeah, the Oracle got hit way too hard. I appreciate it needed changing and argued for it myself, but it's actually useless now. I don't think I would ever build it, even for a Cultural victory.

 

[Stalker0]

Hehe G, if you are pondering another set of changes, can you keep it in a new thread? Its hard now because we are talking about 1-3 AND your next set of proposed changes at the same time.

In terms of the current patch, playing China on King, Standard, Communitas, Events On, Normal Speed. I have a 4 city China game with Tradition 6/Fealty 4/Artistry 1/Industry 6/Freedom play right now. Hitting modern era.

General thoughts:

1) AI wise the top 3 AIS are decently close. I'm flipping between 1st and 2nd in score, no runaways.

2) Gold wise I'm making about ~450 GPT. But purchase wise I'm basically investing in every building possible. Building investment is so cheap compared to new units right now, and I felt this way before I hit Industry. I know it scales based on city number, so with only 4 cities I'm just buying everything, and that is with tradition play. But I haven't bought any units. Has nothing to do with the XP change its just buildings are so cheap I would rather spend the gold there.

3) I do think the Oracle was overnerfed, and the AI noticed it too....the Oracle went forever without being built. I think the direction is fine just needs its yields buffed.

4) Personally I still find Artistry very weak in general. Its a got a few policies that are solid (in this game I flirted with the opener). But the +1 happy per 2 works I find very lame, and the bonus per work is just okay. The half your happy as culture I've never thought was good, but it does give +10% culture in GA so that's something. I don't know, I just feel that Fealty and Statecraft are more solid trees. There policies are more balanced with the whole tree, and Fealty offers me a flexibility with my policy selection that is very nice.

5) I am working the maximum number of specialists in basically every city right now, and having no issues with growth (note I have not yet taken the Freedom policy that decreases specialist consumption, I just took economic union). Now China is good at growth period, but its just something to note. I'm all specialist all the time, there's really no reason for me to do anything else.

6) In this game, 2 of my cities are in heavily forested areas, so I will comment a bit on the recent Farm vs Forest discussion.

On the one hand: currently my forests give me 3 food, 3 production, 1 science, 1 tourism. That's pretty darn good, and overall feels better than a farm. That said....I'm not working many of them anyway...again its all specialists all the time right now, so a weaker forest wouldn't hurt all that much.

For a specialist play, the key is actually hammers. I can get the food I need through a few big farms and food buildings...but I need the hammers to build the infrastructure to get the specialist slots. So honestly by mid game its less about the food of forests and more about the very nice selection of hammers. Getting some good hammers going in a city will let me get the key buildings up, then I can switch to specialists for the better yields. I don't need a big city when specialists can produce the yields I need.

But its not that one forest tile is that strong...in those scenarios a few mines are better off for me. ITs when you get a nice whole forested area where every tile is getting you good food and good hammers to let you rachet things up.

7) This is tagging off of point 6, but its a part of the discussion:

The workshop (and to a lesser extent the forge) is in a weird place right now. On the one hand, in the cities catered to a workshop (aka big forests), the workshop is an amazing building. Otherwise, its pretty weak. But its the prereq building to enter into the later game production buildings you need to keep up in hammers. So its either:

a) A building I love to build, frothing at the hammers I am about to get

or

b) A building I curse having to spend time on

I feel that the workshop is in the herbalist or stoneworks model right now....but since its the key prereq building its sitting in a different place. So if we are going to nerf forests I would be fine making the workshop just a more core solid building and less terrain dependent.

 

[pineappledan]

The workshop (and to a lesser extent the forge) is in a weird place right now. On the one hand, in the cities catered to a workshop (aka big forests), the workshop is an amazing building. Otherwise, its pretty weak. But its the prereq building to enter into the later game production buildings you need to keep up in hammers. So its either:

a) A building I love to build, frothing at the hammers I am about to get

or

b) A building I curse having to spend time on

I feel that the workshop is in the herbalist or stoneworks model right now....but since its the key prereq building its sitting in a different place. So if we are going to nerf forests I would be fine making the workshop just a more core solid building and less terrain dependent.

Couldn't agree more. Proposed solution:
+1 prod or +1 gold should stay on workshop, but not both. I vote drop the production, personally
+1 to merchant slots, +1 to engineer slots in city (this is the old factory boost, but it's being replaced by +2 to manufactories. Halve its yields and move it earlier)

 

[CrabHelmet]

I think there is more Gold in VP than Production. My vote would be to drop Gold from Workshop, not Production.

 

[Rekk]

I'd like to keep tourism on forest/jungle, if possible.

Could Archaeologists gain the Ice Breakers promotion at the same time as Work Boats do at Ballistics? I'm still finding Antiquity sites that are Ice-locked.

Vassal liberation conditions are currently as follows:
Vassal for X turns
AND one of:
1. number of cities 75% or greater than when vassalage started.
2. population is 300% or greater than when vassalage started.
3. number of cities is 60% or greater than the number Master's cities.

When are options 2 or 3 ever going to be the case before 1 is the case? In fact, I can see 1 always happening before X turns unless the Master buys the Vassal's cities or the Master is in a losing war with yet another civ.

 

[BiteInTheMark]

I'm in a mid-Medieval game as Shoshone (liberty -> fealty). So far the gold investment changes seem a bit off - investing in buildings is very cheap now, yet gold income is about the same early game, so it's been very easy to build almost every building in my core cities even with the liberty nerfs. I'm dominating this game much harder than usual, though that's also partially due to having a very good start.

The other changes in this patch generally seem fine, and have not been as noticeable as the gold change.

So I just entered industrial in my game (Emperor,Germany, Authority-Statecraft-Rationalism). I have 6 cities and 2 puppets, I actually feel like I have more gold than before. Not in raw numbers wise, but I actually invest in 80%+ of my buildings and am running out of things to build in every city. But you allready said you adjusted the formula so mybe it is allready fixed.

There are only few changes, which impact gold generation. The nerfs to progress and industry were justified, and the specialist nerf from factories too. But theres nothing more to regulate the late game gold overflow, you can still get thousands of gold.
Also, the food overflow isnt touched. Generating 40+ food in every city with buildings only is part of the problem. Reducing the flat food from buildings and +food/+growth would leed to less grow of cities. Which would leed to less yield generation and specialist.
Remove the food for forest and jungles from herbalists and give it some other effect. Now you have to decide, do I want more growth and work farm triangles, or do I accept less grow but still get other yields. This alone would remove the universal advantage of forest/jungle tiles, (each tile with more than 2 food generation increase the growth).

 

[DarkZero]

Food is the mos important yield in the early game, taking away the food from forests from the herbalist already ensures that almost no forest will ever be worked, making choping much more attractive, lets try out one nerf at a time before removing 90% of the yields from forests...

 

[Gazebo]

There are only few changes, which impact gold generation. The nerfs to progress and industry were justified, and the specialist nerf from factories too. But theres nothing more to regulate the late game gold overflow, you can still get thousands of gold.
Also, the food overflow isnt touched. Generating 40+ food in every city with buildings only is part of the problem. Reducing the flat food from buildings and +food/+growth would leed to less grow of cities. Which would leed to less yield generation and specialist.
Remove the food for forest and jungles from herbalists and give it some other effect. Now you have to decide, do I want more growth and work farm triangles, or do I accept less grow but still get other yields. This alone would remove the universal advantage of forest/jungle tiles, (each tile with more than 2 food generation increase the growth).

Woah now, I think you're breezing over the bank nerf. That alone is making a huge impact late-game. Also increased maintenance costs for buildings.

G

 

[BiteInTheMark]

Woah now, I think you're breezing over the bank nerf. That alone is making a huge impact late-game. Also increased maintenance costs for buildings.

G

8 cities = 8 gold for every custom house and caravansery = 8*16 = 128 gold. Multiplied with 35% modifier = 172 gold. I agree, removing this buff is a good start.
I compare this with 2-2.5k gold generation in my current game of a previous version (I do not even count gold through events, so it does not mean the nerfs are not taken into account).
Compare the numbers and you see, there is no HUGE impact from the former bank effect.
Even if I double the gold maintenance from buildings, I still would have over 1.2k gold surplus.

 

[Gazebo]

8 cities = 8 gold for every custom house and caravansery = 8*16 = 128 gold. Multiplied with 35% modifier = 172 gold. I agree, removing this buff is a good start.
I compare this with 2-2.5k gold generation in my current game of a previous version (I do not even count gold through events, so it does not mean the nerfs are not taken into account).
Compare the numbers and you see, there is no HUGE impact from the former bank effect.
Even if I double the gold maintenance from buildings, I still would have over 1.2k gold surplus.

I think you're wrong on the efficacy of the nerf, but I don't intend to try and convince you. Gold costs go up quite a bit for purchasing post-industrial - having over 1k gold per turn means you can comfortably upgrade/purchase a unit or two every turn. That's fine. Don't worry about the amount of GPT if it matches with the demand for Gold at that time.

G