New Beta Version - January 3rd (1/3)

[Gazebo]

Like, historically, an enormous amount of deforestation occurred during the Bronze Age. In VP, nobody chops Forests until, at the very least Civil Service, unless they're clearing room for a Lux. That's a bit out of whack, IMO.

Historically, there's been more deforestation in the the 19th-21st centuries than all other human centuries combined...

G

 

[Txurce]

Implicit? There were few posts proposing to remove 1 food from forest. Well... how?

That forests themselves are on grass or plains or hills, and don't provide food in and of themselves, is implicit. Or clearly in the rules. However you want to view it.

Moving along, I never said that any food should be removed from forests. I said some of their boosts should be nerfed, so that chopping them quits being a non-starter.

 

[CrazyG]

That forests themselves are on grass or plains or hills, and don't provide food in and of themselves, is implicit. Or clearly in the rules. However you want to view it.

Moving along, I never said that any food should be removed from forests. I said some of their boosts should be nerfed, so that chopping them quits being a non-starter.

Workshop and university are the problem in my opinion

 

[Drakul]

Yeah, i think the food yields from bulidings should be nerffed and specialists should demand much,much more food. Currently almost after the first 20-30 turns your cities can work 2-3 specialsts and grow at an astanoshing rate. You don´t have to make choices in what to invest. In a bigger city with more population,suply,working tiles or in a specialist. You basicly take everything in every city no matter where it is placed because of the insane amount of food received from buildings,policies etc.

 

[Txurce]

Workshop and university are the problem in my opinion

I had forgotten about universities. Workshops are where I would start conceptually, because they 1) overbuff forests, and 2) otherwise serve as weak gateways to factories.

 

[CrabHelmet]

Historically, there's been more deforestation in the the 19th-21st centuries than all other human centuries combined...

G

I didn't say there wasn't. I just said there was a substantial amount of deforestation before that. You can see the removal of European forest cover on this map:

The Bronze Age was called the Bronze Age because of how much Bronze was produced for every day items. The process was enormously inefficient - it took about an acreage of wood to produce a single bronze ingot. You can see that between 1000 BC and 300 BC there's already been a really substantial reduction in forest cover. Humans were no slouches at cutting trees down even then!

 

[Txurce]

I didn't say there wasn't. I just said there was a substantial amount of deforestation before that. You can see the removal of European forest cover on this map:

The Bronze Age was called the Bronze Age because of how much Bronze was produced for every day items. The process was enormously inefficient - it took about an acreage of wood to produce a single bronze ingot. You can see that between 1000 BC and 300 BC there's already been a really substantial reduction in forest cover. Humans were no slouches at cutting trees down even then!

Great chart.

 

[CrazyG]

I had forgotten about universities. Workshops are where I would start conceptually, because they 1) overbuff forests, and 2) otherwise serve as weak gateways to factories.

Eh, I'm really not a fan of the science from universities. One thing is that universities are a very core building that all cities will want to build (unlike say a stable). So forests kind of recieve this buff for free. Also, having like half of your citizens already working good tiles suddenly get 1 science a pop is like, amazing.

Whereas if you want to buff farms, you need to spend a religious belief on cathedrals. I think this is the issue. Workshops are also a problem (they never should have recieved +1 gold on forests)

 

[CrabHelmet]

Herbalists are also a massive problem. For roughly the same cost as a worker, you can turn every single Forest tile, instantly, into a 3 Food 1 Production tile. That's the same as a Farm triangle on Plains, something that takes a worker and several turns just to get one of, and is dependent on not being disrupted by Luxuries or Strategic Resources or whatever. I've been recording how well I perform with different starts recently, and I win significantly more often when my start is heavily Forested. The AI doesn't seem to understand the value of Forests and is hellbent on chopping them down, so it might not show up on tests, but for the player, I always feel at a significant advantage if I start with Forests. That doesn't feel right from a flavour perspective.

 

[Gazebo]

Interestingly, beta #2 is tackling already tackling many of the issues noted here. Posting my WIP notes below. I don't think Herbalists are all that problematic, but I'm willing to consider a change if needed. TBH I like the idea of Forests peaking in power in the late-Ancient/Classical period, and then (and only then) being outclassed by other tiles in the Medieval+ period.

Edit: increasing the maintenance of the Herbalist to 2 might be enough to offset the bonus.

• Balance
• General
  • Tweaked building/unit purchase cost formula a bit
  • Units now scale with empire size in cost (same as buildings)
  • Building and Unit base cost increased slightly
  • City-States can now upgrade their units when they have the tech (gold limitations removed for them)
    • They're already behind on techs, so no reason to double-punish them.
• Tourism
  • Reduced influence TR bonuses slightly
  • Growth now 5/10/15/20/25%
  • Gold now 2/4/6/8/10
• Buildings
  • University/Seowon - removed Forest/Jungle Science
  • Zoo - removed Tourism on Forests/Jungles
  • Factory/Steam Mill - removed Specialist bump, now grants Manufactories +2 Production
  • Stock Exchange - now provides Towns with +2 Gold, dropped Gold per Citizen to 1:5
  • Medical Lab- the 3 specialists now produce +1 of their base yield (instead of all science), and food kept dropped to 15% (Was 30%)
  • Well/Watermill - now divided - Well generates +1f per 5 citizens, Watermill +1p per 5 citizens. Well base food now +2 (was +1)
    • These buildings scaled surprisingly well (ha), and needed a nerf. Also further differentiates for cities on/off rivers.
  • Floating Gardens - now +1f/p per 5 citizens (was +2 per 5)
  • Agribusiness - loses 10% food, now grants all farms +1 food.
• Specialists
  • Normalized Specialist yields from tech (Engineers always get Production, GWAM always get Culture, etc.)
  • Specialists produce .34 unhappiness (was .25) - so 3 specialists = 1 unhappiness
• Policies
  • Tribute - border expanding yields now 15 (Was 20)

 

[CrazyG]

and then (and only then) being outclassed by other tiles in the Medieval+ period

You mean my 5 food farm "outclassing" my 3 food, 2 hammer, 1 gold, 1 science tile? That is without even building a lumbermill

 

[Gazebo]

You mean my 5 food farm "outclassing" my 3 food, 2 hammer, 1 gold, 1 science tile? That is without even building a lumbermill

Did you look at my changelog above?

 

[Kim Dong Un]

Well it's actually slightly wrong. You sometimes chop Forests for the short-term production boost, usually for Wonders if you are worried you are behind.

A pretty niche situation if you ask me.

This is honestly the only time I chop.

 

[CrazyG]

Did you look at my changelog above?

Ok, the science loss is a good change.

 

[Deadstarre]

No question I win more in heavily forested start. I do see Herbalists as problematic though because they also feel like core infrastructure at the moment, it often outperforms the Well in my cities and that seems a bit much.

Herbalist boosting forest looks the core issue, without it when the university and workshops came along to add free yields they'd be good tiles but not enough on their own to sustain city growth- so you'll need to be working a mix of them and also high food tiles (not just every forest in sight & keep growing like now). I think the missing food on forest does need to return sometime in the renaissance via lumbermill upgrade, im only unsure what tech that should be on. Jungle left as is, its not OP- and this would put the herbalist into the dead-end building niche it deserves

Re: balance changes - Would be a real shame to see forest lose science and something making it unique and a reason to preserve, and jungles definitely don't need that hit... I hear people say CV is in the right spot so dunno if zoos matter or not. and the well being nerfed is fine, but i was just thinking how it paled to herbalist already...

 

[Gazebo]

Ok, the science loss is a good change.

No question I win more in heavily forested start. I do see Herbalists as problematic though because they also feel like core infrastructure at the moment, it often outperforms the Well in my cities and that seems a bit much.

Herbalist boosting forest looks the core issue, without it when the university and workshops came along to add free yields they'd be good tiles but not enough on their own to sustain city growth- so you'll need to be working a mix of them and also high food tiles (not just every forest in sight & keep growing like now). I think the missing food on forest does need to return sometime in the renaissance via lumbermill upgrade, im only unsure what tech that should be on. Jungle left as is, its not OP- and this would put the herbalist into the dead-end building niche it deserves

Re: balance changes - Would be a real shame to see forest lose science and something making it unique and a reason to preserve, and jungles definitely don't need that hit... I hear people say CV is in the right spot so dunno if zoos matter or not. and the well being nerfed is fine, but i was just thinking how it paled to herbalist already...

What about this, then?

• Herbalist loses food on forest, keeps it on Jungle
• Workshop no longer buffs Jungle
• University/Seowon keep their +1 Science on Jungle

So we'd have Forests getting +1p/g, Jungles getting +1f/s. Makes them distinct and splits up the power spike of the Herbalist/University.

G

 

[Gothic_Empire]

muh forests

 

[Gothic_Empire]

What about this, then?

• Herbalist loses food on forest, keeps it on Jungle
• Workshop no longer buffs Jungle
• University/Seowon keep their +1 Science on Jungle

So we'd have Forests getting +1p/g, Jungles getting +1f/s. Makes them distinct and splits up the power spike of the Herbalist/University.

G

it's different from what I know and therefore I hate it.

 

[Gazebo]

it's different from what I know and therefore I hate it.

So...good?

G

 

[Noob Fanboy]

I know this is a balance discussion, but your proposal is historically accurate, isn't it? (Except from the loss of food in herbalist for forest)

I like it