New Beta Version - June 22nd (6/22)

[Moi Magnus]

I'm still seeing AI dromons and triremes ending in ocean tiles and attacking from there, not sure if a feature or not.

It should be a consequence of a known bug :
Sometimes, units stop in the middle of their movement for no real reason. It can lead to multiple units on the same tile (even units of different civs on the same tile) or naval units stoping on ocean tiles while they are supposed to just be able to pass through them.
It should not be easy to reproduce, so if you see frequently naval units fighting from ocean tiles while they shouldn't, you may have found a new bug.

 

[ElliotS]

- Fog of war for the turn (it makes yields map info to dissapear)

This is one of my favorite features, but one of the most annoying bugs. I'm not sure if I support it unless it can be implemented without fixing the vanishing yields.

- Field guns -> Artillery
- Starting with a pathfinder
- Trade routes giving culture
- Delay for first policy.

I'm heavily in favor of all of these.

- Linking wonders to policy tree finishers.
I'm ambivalent about this.

As for the discussions on the site:
I think we've got enough discussion on the ideologies in each thread. Looking forward to those changes. (RIP lightning warfare, may the rest of the tree be blessed so autocracy isn't nerfed into hell.)

There's been some good discussion on enhancers which i still feel are a bit out-of-whack. The biggest consensus seems to be that Resilience is terrible and should probably be reworked or changed.

Barbarian raids should probably be nerfed. They're a common complaint and losing production or culture is much worse than gold.

For the record and people that want warriors at the start, I think starting everyone with 1 warrior and 1 pathfinder might be the best solution. That gives you more options to start while leaving a lot of strategic choice. (Defend/Explore with 1, both or neither? Do you only explore nearby with the warrior or beeline him away?)

 

[LukaSlovenia29]

Thanks, Magnus!

Good post by ElliotS, I agree with it, with the exception that I like the reshuffling of wonders to policy trees.

 

[Txurce]

For the record and people that want warriors at the start, I think starting everyone with 1 warrior and 1 pathfinder might be the best solution. That gives you more options to start while leaving a lot of strategic choice. (Defend/Explore with 1, both or neither? Do you only explore nearby with the warrior or beeline him away?)

This is a fairly major change, but no bigger than swapping a warrior for a pathfinder. It would obviously give the player more options from the start, and the AI would be recompensed accordingly.

The downside I worry about are ruins disappearing with the increase in units. I also wouldn't want an extra warrior to affect the desired nerfing of early barb activity.

The OB has already been mentioned. I think it needs some adjustment, or a return to where it's always been.

 

[Owlbebach]

My thoughts:

- Field guns -> Artillery
good, 2 range, indirect fire is exactly what was needed

- Starting with a pathfinder
should be optional cause its way better to start with a warrior if you plan to go authority

- Trade routes giving culture
not bad itself but does not fix progress at all.

- Fog of war for the turn (it makes yields map info to dissapear)
indifferent

- Linking wonders to policy tree finishers.
Taj Mahal seems to be very weak for Piety. Reworked Broadway seems to be incredibly strong, but i have not built it - my friend won earlier. Everything else seems good

- Delay for first policy.
New costs seems good overall, besides the fact that it was a huge nerf to progress. In my most recent game i gave progress +2 per every city (upon adopting progress). Sounds extremely OP, isn't it? But turned out it was not
Also Piety now seems to be much more useless due to new timings. By the time additional pressure and faith purchase costs reduction are adopted there is no city to spread to.

New great works seemed to be a move to right direction, but they are not in the right place yet. Recent change was actually a buff to tourism and great works are now even more useless for civs that do not plan to go for tourism victory, This is due to how they affect golden ages and culture boosts. How about archaeological digs giving culture instead of tourism?

I am still strongly against the new naval changes. But in my own games i gave Dromons and Galleas 4 moves instead of 3, and with 4 moves they are quite fun. However, frigates turned out to be real problem. 4 moves + 2 range + move&shoot is just ridiculous. For those who haven't tried - you can shoot a city with about 20 ships per turn! When new frigates become available you basically have two options: 1) if you do not have significant naval force - your coatal cities become undefendable and 2) if you do have significant naval force - nobody can stop you from capturing any coastal city.

And in addition to that - new version seems to be very unstable in multiplayer later on: i could not get past Modern Era on Large map, i had CTD every 3-4 turns

 

[vyyt]

However, frigates turned out to be real problem. 4 moves + 2 range + move&shoot is just ridiculous

Hmm, this is what I have been afraid of. I tried one game before getting to frigates because I made some stupid mistakes and was bound to lose. I thought even the dromons with hit and run ability were a bit too strong, so I was wondering about extra range frigates...

 

[Owlbebach]

Hmm, this is what I have been afraid of. I tried one game before getting to frigates because I made some stupid mistakes and was bound to lose. I thought even the dromons with hit and run ability were a bit too strong, so I was wondering about extra range frigates...

Dromons with 3 moves are awful, dromons with 4 moves are good because they are limited with ocean. Frigates are seriously broken

 

[Txurce]

Hmm, this is what I have been afraid of. I tried one game before getting to frigates because I made some stupid mistakes and was bound to lose. I thought even the dromons with hit and run ability were a bit too strong, so I was wondering about extra range frigates...

You're saying different things. His units have been buffed.

For the record, I don't find any naval vessels too weak, or too strong. The AI uses them well, by the way.

 

[Owlbebach]

You're saying different things. His units have been buffed with a mod.

For the record, I don't find any naval vessels too weak, or too strong. The AI uses them well, by the way.

My dromons and galleas were buffed, and its not a mod, i just changed the number in the .sql, its easy. I did not change frigates.

 

[tu_79]

I find that playing non coastal is harder. You can't build ships before taking a coastal city. Their fleet retakes the city immediately, you lose one melee unit, repeat. Now you need catapults more than ever, but now they are weaker against navies. It should be the opposite.

Edit. Why can't I throw valyrian fire against their fleet?

 

[Txurce]

My dromons and galleas were buffed, and its not a mod, i just changed the number in the .sql, its easy. I did not change frigates.

I'll change my original wording. More importantly, I believe frigates have a range of ONE. Cruisers are the first with 2 range.

 

[Owlbebach]

I'll change my original wording. More importantly, I believe frigates have a range of ONE. Cruisers are the first with 2 range.

Hm, interesting, i thought i didn't change frigates, but i might forgot that too, it was a game that took me 2 weeks to finish

 

[Jarula]

I liked the old policy costs... I do have an idea though if you want the effect of religion to taper down or perhaps add a new reformation policy increasing yields for specialists...?

 

[Enginseer]

I liked the old policy costs... I do have an idea though if you want the effect of religion to taper down or perhaps add a new reformation policy increasing yields for specialists...?

We already have a follower belief doing so?

 

[Jarula]

Yeah I guess your right just last time I was basically popping a GP for a HUGE bonus it seemed a lil' out there...

Basically I really don't know maybe dropping the Peace treaty times might help but the snowball with techs is a little OP to me... Maybe make the tradition end with +50 science scaling with era in addition to culture...?

 

[Boombar]

New policy costs have made piety opener completely useless. by the time i get to pick piety, there is nowhere to spread my religion. Also, second policy in piety tree feels like a waste of culture unless you are playing Byzantine and you have to purchase 4 different religious buildings in 10 cities. It doesn't work with purchasing great people or zealotry. Other policies in piety are fine, but having to waste 2 points to get there makes piety not so appealing anymore.

 

[Gokudo01]

New policy costs have made piety opener completely useless. by the time i get to pick piety, there is nowhere to spread my religion. Also, second policy in piety tree feels like a waste of culture unless you are playing Byzantine and you have to purchase 4 different religious buildings in 10 cities. It doesn't work with purchasing great people or zealotry. Other policies in piety are fine, but having to waste 2 points to get there makes piety not so appealing anymore.

we've got this issue with many other policies and ideology tenets.

 

[CrazyG]

I like the delayed policy openers, I think its the right direction to go overall. But its moved a lot of things of balance, like Piety, who now has 2 pretty weak policies in a row

I find all ancient trees pretty close in power. That includes progress. If the discussed boost for progress of getting science for citizens already born in capital is included, the tree overall should be fine. I'd still vote to kill the trade route bonus, just because it strikes me as really unnecessary and hard to use

Including culture on trade routes has made trading with City States my preferred option

Yeah I guess your right just last time I was basically popping a GP for a HUGE bonus it seemed a lil' out there...

Basically I really don't know maybe dropping the Peace treaty times might help but the snowball with techs is a little OP to me... Maybe make the tradition end with +50 science scaling with era in addition to culture...?

Tradition gets that 50 science per great person if they build Sankore. If you are suggesting tradition can't keep up in science I really don't agree

 

[ElliotS]

- Starting with a pathfinder
should be optional cause its way better to start with a warrior if you plan to go authority

I prefer the scout and play 90% authority.

 

[Asterix Rage]

I prefer the scout and play 90% authority.

dedicate's Pachacuti