New Beta Version - October 10th (10/10)

[Gazebo]

Just a simple math reminder: mean, median, and mode are all under the category of ‘average.’ Clarity on this point will help keep things clear.

And the global function grabs 40% because with rounding I found that it often was a bit more stable at this value than 50%. Still a median in functionality, just a weighted median.

G

 

[Stalker0]

While the happiness thing is on topic, I think it’s time to send it to another thread, it’s just dominating this thread right now which is meant for general feedback on the version.

 

[Txurce]

While the happiness thing is on topic, I think it’s time to send it to another thread, it’s just dominating this thread right now which is meant for general feedback on the version.

I disagree. It's clearly the most important change in this patch, and talking about it doesn't preclude others from raising other issues.

When thinking about growing, you need to consider what your opportunity costs are. Compare the cost of your buildings to the cost of growing. There are a ton of strong buildings in the medieval and renaissance eras that are cheap. If your next citizen is 1,000 food but you have buildings that cost 600 hammers, why are you focusing food? Get production instead, banks, windmills, opera houses or the like will be more valuable than your 31st citizen.

You also want to look at what the best tile that you aren't working is. If its primary benefit is food, why grow? I see saves where people do this, they really focus on food, then the next citizen works food, and the one after, and the one after. It doesn't accomplish anything, food can't win the game. In vanilla this can work because science was so important and each citizen produces science, but in VP the benefits are too small.

Once past a size 10 city, I focus on growth whenever possible, while building the most obvious happiness buildings. That should deal with most happiness issues, right? Obviously not. After reading CrazyG's posts on the topic, I tried something different: switching to production in most cases, unless I needed to grow. I only have a one-game sample, in which I am also (not coincidentally?) leading in SPs as well as techs, and am almost first in pop, with a normal 12 cities. But my happiness is 42 in the Modern era, never dipped below zero in the Industrial, and I have yet to benefit from happiness tenets.

This improvement wasn't caused by Wonders — I tend to get most of the culture ones. I did choose synagogues for anticipated distress help, but don't know exactly how much that helped. And I never stopped growing. In essence, the main change from my standard play was going into heavy production mode fairly early on... and it didn't even stunt my growth.

I won't always be first in culture, which will lower my happiness. And one could nitpick that constant production's a bit one-note, but I think gold would have worked just as well in many cities. My conclusion is that (surprise, surprise) the best players are right, and strategically de-emphasizing growth — even sometimes when it looks like a smart thing to do — makes Industrial/late-game unhappiness very manageable.

 

[Gazebo]

While the happiness thing is on topic, I think it’s time to send it to another thread, it’s just dominating this thread right now which is meant for general feedback on the version.

It’s also worthwhile to note that this is all largely academic, as I’m not seeing any complaints about the system in 10-10.

G

 

[BiteInTheMark]

It’s also worthwhile to note that this is all largely academic, as I’m not seeing any complaints about the system in 10-10.

G

All the attention goes to the median values, which are easy to observe and understandable. While the need-modifiers are an abstract construction, filled with not (visible) specified modifiers from population, tech-median, need reductions from buildings, wonders and social policies..... And the effect of the shift is gradual, unless you have such specific events like late game elimination or playing around with LiveTuner, it is nearly impossible to notice that.

 

[tu_79]

So, right now we have a 40 percentile value for empires.
Other possible values to compare our current tech are:
+ Mean of the civs techs.
+ Mean of the world population.
+ Median of the world population.

Where can I see population and tech level in a game. Are these values stored in the save game? Or the logs?

 

[Gazebo]

All the attention goes to the median values, which are easy to observe and understandable. While the need-modifiers are an abstract construction, filled with not (visible) specified modifiers from population, tech-median, need reductions from buildings, wonders and social policies..... And the effect of the shift is gradual, unless you have such specific events like late game elimination or playing around with LiveTuner, it is nearly impossible to notice that.

Ok? That doesn't make it less of an academic endeavor...

G

 

[BiteInTheMark]

Ok? That doesn't make it less of an academic endeavor...

G

Beeing ahead by one tech but penalized with a modifier for beeing ahead of four tech, which is as strong as a 225% need reduction building, isnt academic. Its elemental.

 

[Gazebo]

Beeing ahead by one tech but penalized with a modifier for beeing ahead of four tech, which is as strong as a 225% need reduction building, isnt academic. Its elemental.

Thanks, Wattie.

G

 

[Enrico Swagolo]

Beeing ahead by one tech but penalized with a modifier for beeing ahead of four tech, which is as strong as a 225% need reduction building, isnt academic. Its elemental.

But what elemental? Fire elemental? Just use ice (or water) attacks then, they deal well with the resistance weakness.

 

[Aristos]

But what elemental? Fire elemental? Just use ice (or water) attacks then, they deal well with the resistance weakness.

Hey! This is not Civ 6!

 

[Kim Dong Un]

It’s also worthwhile to note that this is all largely academic, as I’m not seeing any complaints about the system in 10-10.

G

Only played one, but had a 30 city (20 puppet) Mongol empire with no problems on standard King. The happiness seemed to have a good flow. Still had fluctuations, but overall they were more staggered as I left growth and citizens on auto for the majority of the game. Realistically I could've pushed even harder war wise and been fine on the happiness front. I even took Order against the remaining two civs, the Aztecs and Indonesia, who took autocracy.

Speaking on Order, when selecting it I've noticed I usually have military academies and factories in the majority of my main cities already built, so the corresponding tenets on tier 1 and 2 are underwhelming considering the other ideologies get free buildings. I know this has been brought up before, so just throwing it back out there.

I don't know if something is really in the works around the corner, but if I can squeak another game in over the next week then I'll give it a go.

 

[pineappledan]

G, we have to go gold fast.

Morons have found the mods repository and keep trying to use the 05/20 build with the latest versions of the modmods.

 

[Enginseer]

G, we have to go gold fast.

The morons have found the mods repository and keep trying to use the 05/20 build with the latest versions of the mods.

Because all my steam mods reference the download threat which the official version keep saying 05/20..

I feel like we just need to remove the Beta version and start changing the official version to the most recent.

 

[Gazebo]

I'm out of town on work most of this weekend and part of next week, so unfortunately timing isn't the best for updates right now.

G

 

[Aristos]

I'm out of town on work most of this weekend and part of next week, so unfortunately timing isn't the best for updates right now.

G

Good to know though, as I am tight in time and wanted to try this oh-so-contentious version, but didn't know if I could start one before your next Blitzkrieg-like new version...

 

[ryanmusante]

Good to know though, as I am tight in time and wanted to try this oh-so-contentious version, but didn't know if I could start one before your next Blitzkrieg-like new version...

Out of curiosity, does a blitzkrieg attack strategy work in VP?

 

[Enginseer]

Out of curiosity, does a blitzkrieg attack strategy work in VP?

*blocks your path*

 

[Hinin]

*blocks your path*

Sweet sweet irony.

In addition to France, Sweden (particularly with its UU), the Huns and Songhai (with their flanking bonus), Denmark (when an army of vikings flood your shores in 1 turn and can still attack), and any civ with the "Lightning warfare" tenet from Autocracy.
+ civs with terrain advantages (Iroquois, Incas...), for they can strike in unexpected parts of your frontline.

 

[SpankmyMetroid]

Sweet sweet irony.

In addition to France, Sweden (particularly with its UU), the Huns and Songhai (with their flanking bonus), Denmark (when an army of vikings flood your shores in 1 turn and can still attack), and any civ with the "Lightning warfare" tenet from Autocracy.
+ civs with terrain advantages (Iroquois, Incas...), for they can strike in unexpected parts of your frontline.

Denmark in particular can be brutally effective in the early game, since they sap pretty much all the gold from the empire’s treausury from the cities they hit, which means they can’t buy any units, rush any defensive buildings... they’re broke. Even if they hurl themselves to their deaths at your cities Denmark now has a pile of your gold to spam more units. I learned this the hard way...