New Beta Version - September 9th (9-9)

[andersw]

Do you know if settler and pioneer cost scales with map size at all? I found settler costs to be fine, but pioneer costs seem rather high, not sure if it's just because I have more cities (8-10) than a smaller map would.

It probably scales with speed and I play epic.
I don't think it scales with size, but as if you play wide well ... with a bigger map you'll have more cities and higher cost for pioneers, I didn't use much pioneers before and using even less now.

 

[JamesNinelives]

with a bigger map you'll have more cities and higher cost for pioneers

Yes, indeed. It's annoying when unlocking a tech (Banking in this case) makes doing something (settling a new city) harder rather than easier. Not that the buildings you get with it aren't worth the hammers. I appreciate all that infrastructure. Usually though my priority is just want to claim a spot before someone else does. I feel like in some cases it's better to either avoid Banking or make sure I get my Settlers out before I unlock the tech. Which seems strange to me.

I don't know if other players with different settings are experiencing the same thing though, or if map size is the main culprit.

 

[Zuizgond]

I've played a couple of games (both on this and the previous versions since the pioneer increased cost got in).
The upgrade cost from settler to pioneer seems to increase with the number of cities you have and I think that something similar is the case if you want to produce one.
It is also a unit, so if you produce it in an unhappy city (or conquered city wo courthous) it can take a very very long time.

Edit: if you go stomping around in classic/medival and later want to upgrade, dont be surprised if a settler costs 1500+ gold -> pioneer.

Ok I usually already have around 10-12 cities when it happens. But still, the jump from settler to pioneer makes that you never build pioneers. So I build some settlers just before they get obsolete in case I need some later. It's a waste of production to build a pioneer whose cost is close to a world wonder.

Also, surprisingly enough, colonists cost a bit less than pioneers.

 

[Bridger]

I don't get the happiness black box.

Like, really don't. The mod is unplayable. I say that slogging through many revisions to happiness over the years.

Spoiler :

View attachment 534863

"Increase / by 2.3 for -1. Total deficit is ~5." Alright, I'll start working this 10 food tile then. One of the best reasons to pick sun god right, no distress?

Spoiler :

View attachment 534866

Nope, that's not going to work. What is going on here? The laborer from the last pic was +1 hammer, so even if the method is yield per citizen (which is still absolute garbage in this scenario that these massive food yields are still causing distress) I'm adding 9 /, 9/4 citizens is 2.25, so 2.3 - 2.25 is .64 according to this math. I'm going to reiterate that there is literally nothing better I could be working for distress than an improved mine, two flood plain wheat (one supercharged by sun god pantheon), and a NW with food, yet still I'm distressed. Not just IRL. This was a great city to be settled but it maxed out on unhappiness nearly immediately. Where is the strategy? Where is the logic? Where is the FUN? How can I play 4X without the expansion?

Spoiler :

View attachment 534867

With that other wheat improved, we finally have the only way to avoid distress in the current mod state. It's simple really, you only need to work 37 / (38 assuming the granary isn't counted), or with the current pop of 5, just 5 7+ yield farms. Totally doable with fertilizer and terrace farm triangles in the ancient era!

Don't forget, you're not allowed to grow either or you just get knocked down a few points. What did you think the game was just going to let you improve your empire for free?

My only explanation for what's going is is somehow (and I have no idea why no one else has picked up on this yet especially with the people playing 43 civ games) needs compared to cities aren't scaled to map size, so in a standard game where there would be 7 other capitals my city needs to compare with, now there are 11, basically the global average is stronger. Or AI are just getting free, hidden tile yields on Immortal+. Again, black box and all that.

I'm sorry for being so ornery but I love this project and I hate to see how happiness changes seem to take one step forward, two back over the years. Right now it seems every city but your capital just maxes out unhappiness per citizen (and maybe a few more if it feels like it). Which is basically the same as vanilla without the 4 unhappiness from settling.

It looks like it's working properly to me. I think your problem is that you are trying to eliminate unhappiness. There are very few situations where your cities should have 0 unhappiness (maybe a super advanced/large city with lots of wonders). Your goal isn't to eliminate Unhappiness, but simply contain it and keep it lower than your sources of happiness. This gets easier and easier with time, as many buildings not only improve yields, but also remove unhappiness directly. For example, I think Market (or maybe caravansary?) simply reduces your unhappiness from poverty by 1.

So as time goes on and you unlock new buildings, you can expand more, which is exactly the goal even in Vanilla, where every city and pop generates default unhappiness that you need to combat with happiness buildings. VP accomplishes the same goal (limit expansion to keep the game interesting) but does it in a more subtle and naturalistic way.

Looking at your game, you have 19 unhappiness, but the city you are trying to 'fix' only has 4 unhappiness. You either have too many cities, or your cities are underdeveloped for further expansion. One easy fix is to build a road to the city you're looking at in these screenshots, then you only have 3 unhappiness in this city. Find another city with 5 unhappiness and build the right buildings to reduce *that one*. It is much easier to reduce unhappiness in cities that have lots of it than it is to eliminate unhappiness in cities which only have a small amount.

 

[SpankmyMetroid]

It looks like it's working properly to me. I think your problem is that you are trying to eliminate unhappiness. There are very few situations where your cities should have 0 unhappiness (maybe a super advanced/large city with lots of wonders). Your goal isn't to eliminate Unhappiness, but simply contain it and keep it lower than your sources of happiness. This gets easier and easier with time, as many buildings not only improve yields, but also remove unhappiness directly. For example, I think Market (or maybe caravansary?) simply reduces your unhappiness from poverty by 1.

So as time goes on and you unlock new buildings, you can expand more, which is exactly the goal even in Vanilla, where every city and pop generates default unhappiness that you need to combat with happiness buildings. VP accomplishes the same goal (limit expansion to keep the game interesting) but does it in a more subtle and naturalistic way.

Looking at your game, you have 19 unhappiness, but the city you are trying to 'fix' only has 4 unhappiness. You either have too many cities, or your cities are underdeveloped for further expansion. One easy fix is to build a road to the city you're looking at in these screenshots, then you only have 3 unhappiness in this city. Find another city with 5 unhappiness and build the right buildings to reduce *that one*. It is much easier to reduce unhappiness in cities that have lots of it than it is to eliminate unhappiness in cities which only have a small amount.

Are you even looking at the distress numbers I posted? It makes no mathematical sense or logical sense. I build roads later because it doesn't seem to matter, since some cities take an isolation penalty to happiness and others don't (again, black box) so fixing that the unhappy isolationist will just flip to poverty the next turn or something. I have fewer cities than the AI at this stage in the game, and locked both my other cities. I don't think having a couple 4 pop cities in the ancient era should cripple your growth, but maybe I'm wrong.

If you're telling me I should just expect every citizen in my empire to generate unhappiness, that's fine, but not advertised (definitely didn't use to be this way), and again, the same as vanilla. But without the benefit of having luxuries count for 4.

 

[Bridger]

I don't think it should cripple your growth either, but it's not exactly 'early game'. You're at turn 99. How is it you only have 14 happiness? Each luxury gives 3 happiness now. You should get something like 6 or 8 from difficulty, another 1 or two from discovering natural wonders, and at least 6 from the two starting luxuries at your capital. But it's turn 99 and you haven't traded for any luxuries with AI? You haven't got any city state allies? You settled ~3 other cities and didn't put any of them next to a luxury you didn't already own?

Literally 1 more luxury basically fixes your problem, and 2 will put you up out of the negative. Build one of the right buildings in each city and you're unhappiness goes down by 3-4.

 

[SpankmyMetroid]

Spoiler :

Math doesn't check out with luxuries either. 6 + 1 + 12 = 16? Even though it says 19? It refuses to deal out happiness to my 2 pop annexed, locked city. Is this supposed to happen? The extra luxury happiness just... disappears?

Maybe I'm not seeing the numbers here right. I have 27 citizens in my empire, 19 (16) are happy because of bonuses, 18 are generating unhappiness, I think... fine. If this is truly the case, where the wanted 50% threshold means every unhappy citizen has a luxury point or something assigned,16 + 18 = 34, 16/34 is 47%, not 44. Where are these numbers coming from?

 

[Bridger]

I am unclear on that part myself. Why is it an average of 3 per luxury? When is it not 3 per luxury? I thought the scaling luxury bonus had been removed.

 

[Aqinu]

Spoiler :

View attachment 534902

Math doesn't check out with luxuries either. 6 + 1 + 12 = 16? Even though it says 19? It refuses to deal out happiness to my 2 pop annexed, locked city. Is this supposed to happen? The extra luxury happiness just... disappears?

Maybe I'm not seeing the numbers here right. I have 27 citizens in my empire, 19 (16) are happy because of bonuses, 18 are generating unhappiness, I think... fine. If this is truly the case, where the wanted 50% threshold means every unhappy citizen has a luxury point or something assigned,16 + 18 = 34, 16/34 is 47%, not 44. Where are these numbers coming from?

19 Global Happiness is distributed in every city (don't know exactly how), this comes from a distinct set of sources
16 Happiness represents the sum of all LOCAL Citizens that are happy (local happiness comes from: the global happiness + buildings + other sources...)
44% Comes from 16 / 18 = .88 (should be 88% of citizen are happy by with some current patches was modified to be displayed different). You have .88 / 2 which is 44% (50% means half of the population in you empire is happy the other half is not --> so the empire is content)

 

[andersw]

Ok I usually already have around 10-12 cities when it happens. But still, the jump from settler to pioneer makes that you never build pioneers. So I build some settlers just before they get obsolete in case I need some later. It's a waste of production to build a pioneer whose cost is close to a world wonder.

Also, surprisingly enough, colonists cost a bit less than pioneers.

(edit lost the first part)
I tend to reach banking at 12-15 cities, in extreme cases around 20.
My games tend to end at around mid industrial.

 

[Gazebo]

Spoiler :

View attachment 534902

Math doesn't check out with luxuries either. 6 + 1 + 12 = 16? Even though it says 19? It refuses to deal out happiness to my 2 pop annexed, locked city. Is this supposed to happen? The extra luxury happiness just... disappears?

Maybe I'm not seeing the numbers here right. I have 27 citizens in my empire, 19 (16) are happy because of bonuses, 18 are generating unhappiness, I think... fine. If this is truly the case, where the wanted 50% threshold means every unhappy citizen has a luxury point or something assigned,16 + 18 = 34, 16/34 is 47%, not 44. Where are these numbers coming from?

Happiness is capped at city size, so you may have more empire-wide happiness than can be distributed to your cities.

G

 

[SpankmyMetroid]

Happiness is capped at city size, so you may have more empire-wide happiness than can be distributed to your cities.

G

And annexed cities won’t receive happiness until the courthouse?

 

[legoras]

It is normal that ships with Medic/2 upgrade, dont heal themselves or other ships in non-friendly water?

I know there is other upgrade only for heal outside friendly water, but this is a little strange - Medic, but can't heal

 

[Stalker0]

It is normal that ships with Medic/2 upgrade, dont heal themselves or other ships in non-friendly water?

I know there is other upgrade only for heal outside friendly water, but this is a little strange - Medic, but can't heal

It’s normal. You need the naval siege promotion or that one that the treasure fleet project gives you.