New Beta Version - September 9th (9-9)

[Deljade]

Finally, Calendar resources in forest still suck. I tend to restart when I get forested Sugar or similar stuff. It constrains your early game so much.

Do they really? I know I tend to have different opinions than the consensus here when it comes to balance but I find the early yields really helpful. I assume you refer to happiness problems. Maybe if it's the case you have forest plantition lux, you should make one less city until you can support it and leverage the yields instead for citizens and buildings.

 

[crdvis16]

Do they really? I know I tend to have different opinions than the consensus here when it comes to balance but I find the early yields really helpful. I assume you refer to happiness problems. Maybe if it's the case you have forest plantition lux, you should make one less city until you can support it and leverage the yields instead for citizens and buildings.

I'm with you on this- their early free yields get you really good initial starts and tends to offset the delay in connecting the lux. I think the early game is pretty well balanced in terms of lux yields.

 

[Ayana the Pale]

Maybe they are missing calendar? I wouldn't think ghengis would rush it. That's why you dont disable start bias, he needs his plains : )

Looks like they're using the wet option of the lastest Communitu_79 map, which covers 99% of the world with trees. No plains for poor Temujin.

Azum was correct, I didn't disable start bias, I just have the world on wet. I like jungle games personally. My issue isn't that he isn't using them, it's that, well, why the fudge is he making them if he can't use them in the first place? I would think that would be part of an AI's priorities - if you can't use a unit, probably not a good idea to make an abundance of them (military is different since it has potential use in invasion scenarios, but workers?) Or am I mistaken and the AI doesn't work that way :\

 

[Deljade]

I think the AI just looks on how many cities it has and not how many improvements it can make at the moment to decide to build a worker. Feel free to correct me

 

[Gazebo]

I think the AI just looks on how many cities it has and not how many improvements it can make at the moment to decide to build a worker. Feel free to correct me

I will correct you. This is not what the AI does.

G

 

[Rekk]

I will correct you. This is not what the AI does.

G

Perhaps you have forgotten the other half of a correction, wherein you state the correct reasons as to why so many workers were created.

Is anyone else having this recurring issue where the AI makes an absurd number or workers?View attachment 534635

Like, I suppose my vision isn't great on their empire and they COULD just have literally all their workers in their whole empire grouped in that one city for some reason, but I've seen this problem before and don't really understand why it keeps happening. Does the AI just not know how to use the food/defense/whatever thing in production?

File a bug report.

 

[Gazebo]

Perhaps you have forgotten the other half of a correction, wherein you state the correct reasons as to why so many workers were created.

File a bug report.

I can't speak to an explanation, likely Genghis captured them from other civs or CSs.

G

 

[Kim Dong Un]

I can't speak to an explanation, likely Genghis captured them from other civs or CSs.

G

Khan gonna Khan

 

[Ayana the Pale]

I can't speak to an explanation, likely Genghis captured them from other civs or CSs.

G

He did not - Genghis has only gone to two wars by this point in the game, one of which was against me and didn't get him any workers, the other against Askia which he summarily lost (He'd just forcefully captured Kathmandu and Askia liberated it, in fact). It also doesn't explain why I've seen this happening to other civs in other games (don't have pictures obviously) over the previous few months, some of whom just never went to war in the first place.

It might very well be something I have because of mod conflicts - has anyone else seen/experienced this issue? Normally I'd not care but that early in the game it can ruin an AI's chances of getting ahead with maintenance costs and all. I have to wonder how many AI have trapped themselves in the Ancient Era by strangling their science with too much unit maintenance from overabundant workers.

 

[Bhawb]

It might very well be something I have because of mod conflicts - has anyone else seen/experienced this issue? Normally I'd not care but that early in the game it can ruin an AI's chances of getting ahead with maintenance costs and all. I have to wonder how many AI have trapped themselves in the Ancient Era by strangling their science with too much unit maintenance from overabundant workers.

I haven't personally seen this. I use 4UC and ENW as my only mods.

 

[Omen of Peace]

Do they really? I know I tend to have different opinions than the consensus here when it comes to balance but I find the early yields really helpful. I assume you refer to happiness problems. Maybe if it's the case you have forest plantition lux, you should make one less city until you can support it and leverage the yields instead for citizens and buildings.

Cocoa and Citrus (which spawn in jungle) have amazing early game yields, but I can improve them vastly more quickly then sell some for 2 to 5 gp per turn each...
And the way it constrains your tech path rarely plays well with (my) game plans.

Making one less city doesn't strike you as a big disadvantage?
In any case, I don't feel this is a huge issue since it's solved for me by restarting if needed. So I'll drop the topic.

 

[Deljade]

Cocoa and Citrus (which spawn in jungle) have amazing early game yields, but I can improve them vastly more quickly then sell some for 2 to 5 gp per turn each...
And the way it constrains your tech path rarely plays well with (my) game plans.

Making one less city doesn't strike you as a big disadvantage?
In any case, I don't feel this is a huge issue since it's solved for me by restarting if needed. So I'll drop the topic.

I didn't say you will have one less city I implied you may make it like 10 turns later so that you have more time to get the required tech and at the same time benefit from the yields. You don't have to make it sound like I suggest you play with 6 cities instead of 7.
However I can see the argument that jungle plantations can be made with just one tech and forest plantations need 2. Surely someone thought of moving both jungle and forest clearing to the same tech. My guess as to why it's as it is right now is that forests are generally more powerful than jungles in the mid game (might not be the case with recent rationalism bonus on jungles).

 

[Bridger]

I wonder if something is wonky with the happiness in my game? I've got 57 Happy / 12 Unhappy, with 6 cities, 89 pop on turn 214. I'ts only king difficulty but I do not remember happiness being this easy before?

 

[Deljade]

I wonder if something is wonky with the happiness in my game? I've got 57 Happy / 12 Unhappy, with 6 cities, 89 pop on turn 214. I'ts only king difficulty but I do not remember happiness being this easy before?

Tradition -> artistry?
Your cities probably have huge yields with Indian UB. Check demographics to see if youre making everyone else unhappy (that's how it works right?)

 

[azum4roll]

PSA regarding jungle balance:

If you've always been using Communitas map (or a map based on that), there are only two types of jungle tiles: grassland hills (with only 2 yield instead of 3) and plains non-hills (21). I've fixed this in the next (pending) release of Communitu_79 to bring back grassland jungles to 3 and allow jungle on flat grassland and hilly plains (which are still never appearing for some reason). However, bear in mind that jungles are weaker than they're supposed to be in current version of Communitas map, and you should play other maps or wait for next Communitu_79 map if you want to comment on jungles.

Another thing: in AssignStartingPlots.lua in mod (6a), small amounts of aluminum can be placed in jungles according to the PlaceSmallQuantitiesOfStrategics function, which contradicts the Civilopedia. Not sure if it's intended.

 

[Zuizgond]

I like the reshuffle in starting technologies and how resources are now revealed.

I'm just puzzled about the very high pioneer production cost. I know it is supposed to have been reduced in the 8-16 version but the jump from settler to pioneer is still extremely high. Is it intended?

 

[saamohod]

Has anyone figured out what causes the crashes on turn 1?

 

[andersw]

I like the reshuffle in starting technologies and how resources are now revealed.

I'm just puzzled about the very high pioneer production cost. I know it is supposed to have been reduced in the 8-16 version but the jump from settler to pioneer is still extremely high. Is it intended?

I've played a couple of games (both on this and the previous versions since the pioneer increased cost got in).
The upgrade cost from settler to pioneer seems to increase with the number of cities you have and I think that something similar is the case if you want to produce one.
It is also a unit, so if you produce it in an unhappy city (or conquered city wo courthous) it can take a very very long time.

Edit: if you go stomping around in classic/medival and later want to upgrade, dont be surprised if a settler costs 1500+ gold -> pioneer.

 

[SpankmyMetroid]

I don't get the happiness black box.

Like, really don't. The mod is unplayable. I say that slogging through many revisions to happiness over the years.

Spoiler :

"Increase / by 2.3 for -1. Total deficit is ~5." Alright, I'll start working this 10 food tile then. One of the best reasons to pick sun god right, no distress?

Spoiler :

Nope, that's not going to work. What is going on here? The laborer from the last pic was +1 hammer, so even if the method is yield per citizen (which is still absolute garbage in this scenario that these massive food yields are still causing distress) I'm adding 9 /, 9/4 citizens is 2.25, so 2.3 - 2.25 is .64 according to this math. I'm going to reiterate that there is literally nothing better I could be working for distress than an improved mine, two flood plain wheat (one supercharged by sun god pantheon), and a NW with food, yet still I'm distressed. Not just IRL. This was a great city to be settled but it maxed out on unhappiness nearly immediately. Where is the strategy? Where is the logic? Where is the FUN? How can I play 4X without the expansion?

Spoiler :

With that other wheat improved, we finally have the only way to avoid distress in the current mod state. It's simple really, you only need to work 37 / (38 assuming the granary isn't counted), or with the current pop of 5, just 5 7+ yield farms. Totally doable with fertilizer and terrace farm triangles in the ancient era!

Don't forget, you're not allowed to grow either or you just get knocked down a few points. What did you think the game was just going to let you improve your empire for free?

My only explanation for what's going is is somehow (and I have no idea why no one else has picked up on this yet especially with the people playing 43 civ games) needs compared to cities aren't scaled to map size, so in a standard game where there would be 7 other capitals my city needs to compare with, now there are 11, basically the global average is stronger. Or AI are just getting free, hidden tile yields on Immortal+. Again, black box and all that.

I'm sorry for being so ornery but I love this project and I hate to see how happiness changes seem to take one step forward, two back over the years. Right now it seems every city but your capital just maxes out unhappiness per citizen (and maybe a few more if it feels like it). Which is basically the same as vanilla without the unhappiness from settling.

 

[JamesNinelives]

I've played a couple of games (both on this and the previous versions since the pioneer increased cost got in).
The upgrade cost from settler to pioneer seems to increase with the number of cities you have and I think that something similar is the case if you want to produce one.
It is also a unit, so if you produce it in an unhappy city (or conquered city wo courthous) it can take a very very long time.

Edit: if you go stomping around in classic/medival and later want to upgrade, dont be surprised if a settler costs 1500+ gold -> pioneer.

Do you know if settler and pioneer cost scales with map size at all? I found settler costs to be fine, but pioneer costs seem rather high, not sure if it's just because I have more cities (8-10) than a smaller map would.