New Civ 4:BTS Interview with Mantzaris on IGN!

[seasnake]

And wait ...

 

[GoodGame]

http://www.mythome.org/mayanames.html

or

Borrow names from myth?
http://www.native-languages.org/maya-legends.htm

I wonder what the name of my 5th Great Spy will be when playing the Incas... coming up with historical names for these units will be interesting.

 

[GoodGame]

If it's like GalCiv2 closely, the more money you divert to intelligence, the more general the info you get about their civs without actually spying it out with a unit. Like what techs do they actually have, not just what they're willing to trade. And the more money you have, the faster spies, saboteurs, and counter-spies are generated.

I'd love to see Politicians/Statesman, like an Oratory tech with Sophists, Athenian-style democracy, etc... Explorers being promoted to Great Explorers would be neat. Maybe that's something that could be modded into the quest system.

First, what I have a problem with: I think they actually went from under-representing spies and espionage to OVER-representing them... this extra commerce slider is really iffy to me. There's so many other things that could potentially make more sense as a commerce slider than espionage. And Great Spies? There's already a number of other great people like Great Statesmen and Great Explorers that, to me, take priority.

That's a good change, more realistic. That they kept Cavalry too is great.

They nerfed Cavalry! (sort of)
For instance, the Cuirassier is a new mounted unit that takes the place of the old Cavalry unit in the technology tree. We pushed Cavalry back to require rifling, thus extending the age of the musket and making the beeline to Military tradition less of a dominant strategy.

 

[mice]

If it's like GalCiv2 closely, the more money you divert to intelligence, the more general the info you get about their civs without actually spying it out with a unit. Like what techs do they actually have, not just what they're willing to trade.

You can predict what they'll have though because the AI tech paths are so predictable. With OB and a chariot you should be able to find out all you need to know to attack well. I think espionage will have to deliver more than this knowledge to make it worth spending commerce or specialist value on.

 

[GoodGame]

You can predict what they'll have though because the AI tech paths are so predictable. With OB and a chariot you should be able to find out all you need to know to attack well. I think espionage will have to deliver more than this knowledge to make it worth spending commerce or specialist value on.

OB= order of battle from the Military advisor?

Ah, but you mostly need open borders for a chariot to spy info!!!

I think if they take away some of the free info you get now and make you pay for it in gold, that will increase the value of espionage. Info like the ranking statistics and knowledge of 3rd party relations should have to be bought.

Again if its like GalCiv2, you'll get a generic spy unit for every x commerce, and the spy can be planted in a city (like a civ3 spy mission), or sabotage production partially, or housed in one of your cities as a counterspy, staying until its neutralized by an enemy spy.

 

[Zebra 9]

Wow, awesome, well this is beyond words!!!!

 

[Dom Pedro II]

OB= order of battle from the Military advisor?

Ah, but you mostly need open borders for a chariot to spy info!!!

I'm trying to figure out if you were joking about OB being order of battle and then you make reference to the necessity of "open borders" in the second line...

I think if they take away some of the free info you get now and make you pay for it in gold, that will increase the value of espionage. Info like the ranking statistics and knowledge of 3rd party relations should have to be bought.

Again if its like GalCiv2, you'll get a generic spy unit for every x commerce, and the spy can be planted in a city (like a civ3 spy mission), or sabotage production partially, or housed in one of your cities as a counterspy, staying until its neutralized by an enemy spy.

I think, again, that this espionage system is too much. Spies needed some more love, but IMO, giving them a commerce slider was a bit too much love. You've got three commerces now... gold, science and culture totally 100% of your available commerce. Now you add in espionage? And you won't be able to just use 10% effectively... it's clear you have to pass certain "thresholds" to get the benefits... but why just espionage? I mean, if we're sort of breaking this down into a civ's basic budget, why not health? Why not happiness or military (give XP)? I mean, if we had to break down a country's total spending into only four categories for which three of them are things as broad and generalized as gold, culture and science, the fourth category is not going to be espionage.

So it seems to me that if the beef up espionage to justify its place as a commerce, it will overpowered and just silly. If they don't, it will be useless... either way I think it's a mistake.

 

[bonafide11]

I'm trying to figure out if you were joking about OB being order of battle and then you make reference to the necessity of "open borders" in the second line...



I think, again, that this espionage system is too much. Spies needed some more love, but IMO, giving them a commerce slider was a bit too much love. You've got three commerces now... gold, science and culture totally 100% of your available commerce. Now you add in espionage? And you won't be able to just use 10% effectively... it's clear you have to pass certain "thresholds" to get the benefits... but why just espionage? I mean, if we're sort of breaking this down into a civ's basic budget, why not health? Why not happiness or military (give XP)? I mean, if we had to break down a country's total spending into only four categories for which three of them are things as broad and generalized as gold, culture and science, the fourth category is not going to be espionage.

So it seems to me that if the beef up espionage to justify its place as a commerce, it will overpowered and just silly. If they don't, it will be useless... either way I think it's a mistake.

I hate to say it, but I have to agree with you. I am totally excited about everything in this expansion pack, but the espionage slider seems unnecessary, but I could be mistaken and maybe Firaxis will prove me wrong and make it really great.

 

[DrewBledsoe]

Not if "once a certain threshold is reached it grants you benefits", and one of these benefits is a chance to learn / steal a new tech, then it could be an interesting investment....

 

[mice]

If the espionage thresholds allow some kind of Tech leak it could be good.

Instead of just spending commerce or beakers on tech, you could help it leak in your direction.The tech leaks could give discounts to tech you self research or want to trade for

Also espionage could slow down other civ's teching speed.

 

[marioflag]

I think, again, that this espionage system is too much. Spies needed some more love, but IMO, giving them a commerce slider was a bit too much love. You've got three commerces now... gold, science and culture totally 100% of your available commerce. Now you add in espionage? And you won't be able to just use 10% effectively... it's clear you have to pass certain "thresholds" to get the benefits... but why just espionage? I mean, if we're sort of breaking this down into a civ's basic budget, why not health? Why not happiness or military (give XP)? I mean, if we had to break down a country's total spending into only four categories for which three of them are things as broad and generalized as gold, culture and science, the fourth category is not going to be espionage.

So it seems to me that if the beef up espionage to justify its place as a commerce, it will overpowered and just silly. If they don't, it will be useless... either way I think it's a mistake.

Having the fourth slider being espionage is clearly unrealistic, but from a gameplay point of view it can be really wise.
If the espionage is made in a way that you can use espionage as a soft tactic to fight your enemies with covert actions, gameplay wise it will add a lot to gameplay.So it can be unrealistic (well too much!) but better than having an espionage which is more realistic but not fun to use IMO.

 

[Dom Pedro II]

Having the fourth slider being espionage is clearly unrealistic, but from a gameplay point of view it can be really wise.
If the espionage is made in a way that you can use espionage as a soft tactic to fight your enemies with covert actions, gameplay wise it will add a lot to gameplay.So it can be unrealistic (well too much!) but better than having an espionage which is more realistic but not fun to use IMO.

Agreed which is why I said in my first post that we'll have to wait and see how it plays out. It may indeed be really fun, and that will be the determining factor ultimately in how successful it is, not how realistic it is. I'm not opposed to it being a more significant part of the game than it is now (since it's basically non-existent now), and my only real problem is the commerce slider because to me it takes it from being a virtually non-existent aspect of the game to a major aspect of the game when I think its real place in somewhere in between (both from a realism and a gameplay standpoint).

But I'm a modder... so if I really hate it, I'll just cut it out. And if I love it... I'll find a way to improve on it.

 

[CIVPhilzilla]

I can't wait until I can rule the world through corporations. Finally State Property has a major drawback like in real life.

 

[Phoenix1595]

Excellent interview. Everything sounds far beyond my expectations, so all's looking good so far.

I am still trying to figure out whether those medieval units are part of a scenario or part of reg. gameplay. I'm assuming it's a scenario, but if the Teutonic knights are in play, could Poland or Austria-Hungary be another new civ?

I agreed with an earlier post about the Great Spies. While I am incredibly happy that espionage is finally get its due, I would rather have Great statesmen over great spies. They could have increased diplomatic points, or forced certain diplomatic conditions. Outside of performing some great espionage (read: expensive) action, I just don't see how the Great spies will work if we already have spy units.

Anyway, I am a happy clam otherwise.

 

[JujuLautre]

I would rather have Great statesmen over great spies. They could have increased diplomatic points

Actually they can't create such diplomatic boost. How would the AI use them against the human player?

Something a personnaly hope is that they did something about razing cities. In modern-civ warfare, it's much easier to take cities (with bombardment and 2 moves-units). So if they add some spying action in this way, it will be even easier.

The point is I really don't like to raze cities which have a huge size, and even more, to have my cities razed... Also it's quite unrealistic. I'm note bothered with razing cities of small size, but if it becomes easier to raze cities huge size...

 

[bonafide11]

I am really interested in the spies and what the great spies will do. Notice in the interview it says something about "spreading propaganda."

What do you guys think that will be? Will you be able to incite revolutions? Spread propaganda for diplomacy reasons? Get the opponent to change their civics? What will it be...?

 

[DrewBledsoe]

I am really interested in the spies and what the great spies will do. Notice in the interview it says something about "spreading propaganda."

What do you guys think that will be? Will you be able to incite revolutions? Spread propaganda for diplomacy reasons? Get the opponent to change their civics? What will it be...?

Quite possibly all of the above or something similar.Maybe a way to tip cities that are close to revolting over the edge a bit more quickly? It would be fun if you could spread "bad news" about Civ X to Civ Y, "Civ is X is cruel and nasty, don't be their friend" or something like that. This could cause more inter-ai strife, instead of the normal "great ai hippy hugs-for-all".

Oh, I like that idea

 

[Hyoga]

Having the fourth slider being espionage is clearly unrealistic

Is it? How much money do you think the CIA, the FBI, the KGB, and the SIS get? I can guarantee you that they are a major part of government spending, not a minor.

I think it’s perfectly realistic to have espionage be so prominent, because the truly successful nations of the world really give a lot of attention to it.

I mean, if we're sort of breaking this down into a civ's basic budget, why not health? Why not happiness or military (give XP)?

Because you have Civics for that. You don’t need a slider for health. In real-life, the slider for health is the slider for research, anyway. The slider for happiness is already there: it’s culture. You just need to build a Colosseum/Broadcast Tower. Military is a combination of commerce and research, so it’s really already there. What is NOT there is a slider for Diplomacy. And this is my next point.

Keep in mind that you’ve got Civics and Improvements that affect: Health, Happiness, Military, Production, Commerce, Religion… and nothing that affects Diplomacy.

So you don't need a slider for any of those except the one that is missing and can't be modified by the other mentioned means: Diplomacy. Let's carry on this thought...

I mean, if we had to break down a country's total spending into only four categories for which three of them are things as broad and generalized as gold, culture and science, the fourth category is not going to be espionage.

You’re looking at this the wrong way. Think of the espionage slider as a Diplomacy slider. Because that’s really what it is. I’m not saying it’s necessarily good Diplomacy, but it is definitely the only slider that can affect your interactions with the other civs.

Maybe you can’t see espionage being so prominent in a civilization, that’s fine, even though it is, as I mentioned above. Just think of it as their way of giving you a Diplomacy slider that the AI can also use.

Surely you agree that espionage has massive diplomatic functions and that Diplomacy is a major part of a civilization’s budget, and that espionage is the only way to make it AI-usable Diplomacy.

Think of it that way. Don’t get hung up the words “spy” or “espionage”. Instead think of all the Diplomacy it entails.

There is no way to affect Diplomacy at this point except through reacting to the AI popping in. The espionage slider will finally give you that ability to invest in Diplomacy. Even if it is adverse Diplomacy.

And Great Spies? There's already a number of other great people like Great Statesmen and Great Explorers that, to me, take priority.

I agree that Great Spies is kind of a weird GP unit. But Great Explorers are not needed since the Great Merchants are already Great Explorers. Columbus, Jacques Cartier, and Vasco da Gama are all included as Great Merchants. That’s what explorers (discoverers) do, they establish new trade possibilities, thus making great income. That’s why they’re in Merchants. As for Great Statesmen… eh… nah. Great Politicians in general are iffy because those are essentially what the leaders are already. However, Great Diplomat is a GP unit I endorse.

We’ve got:

Engineer – Production
Scientist – Research
Artist – Culture
Merchant – Commerce
Priest – Religion
General – Military

Diplomacy is once again the only thing that’s missing. And once again, I see the Great Spy as the Diplomacy unit. It is really almost all it will do, diplomatic stuff. Bad diplomatic stuff, but it will always have to do with something diplomatic. And that is why I am ok with it. It is a GP unit that affects Diplomacy, and that the AI can use.

So:

Spy - Diplomacy

And all is complete.

I don't really care a whole lot about new civs and leaders, but those are always a nice addition if they're properly balanced.

Shouldn’t you be crying out for the Bralizian Empire (like I am)? Your name would definitely be the leader used for that Civilization, and I think it would be sweet. Push for it! Heh.

 

[Watiggi]

I hope they up the Genghis Khan AI's emphasis on this new espionage system. He placed a massive investment in creating an intellegence network and I hope that priority is reflected in the G.K's AI.

Is it? How much money do you think the CIA, the FBI, the KGB, and the SIS get? I can guarantee you that they are a major part of government spending, not a minor.

I think it’s perfectly realistic to have espionage be so prominent, because the truly successful nations of the world really give a lot of attention to it.

Agreed. It does feel a little strange having an espionage slider in a civ game though, but that's because they have never done it this way before. It's also about having both ways of doing it: making units and diverting commerce to espionage. It's very different and unconventional for the Civ series.

Maybe, when the thresholds are reached, a spy unit is created!

 

[flyingchicken]

All great dictators had prioritized information networks at some point, from Cyrus to Stalin (dictator i.e. dictator-like powers).