New Civics Discussion

[Leoreth]

New thread, to focus discussion on the current state of the civics. Here is an up to date list including effects, upkeep and tech requirements:

GOVERNMENT
Chiefdom (low upkeep)
Despotism (Property, low upkeep): can hurry production by sacrificing population, +1 happiness from Palace, Monument
Monarchy (Ceremony, medium upkeep): +1 happiness per military unit*
Republic (Writing, high upkeep): +1 food per specialist, -1 food for Cottage, Hamlet, Village, Town, can hurry units using gold
Oligarchy (Politics, low upkeep): +50% wealth in capital, -50% maintenance from number of cities
State Party (Social Services, medium upkeep): +50% espionage in capital, no city distance maintenance
Democracy (Representation, high upkeep): +1 free specialist

* I will add a new general rule that limits military happiness to half the city size

LEGITIMACY
Authority (low upkeep)
Citizenship (Law, medium upkeep): +100% growth for Cottage, Hamlet, Village, +2 happiness in largest cities
Vassalage (Nobility, low upkeep): extra military units without upkeep, units produced with food, +1 food +2 commerce for Fort, +1 happiness from Castle
Meritocracy (Education, low upkeep): +1 happiness per specialist, -1 experience needed for promotions, double production for Library, Market, Jail
Centralism (Statecraft, high upkeep): +50% production and commerce in capital
Ideology (Journalism, low upkeep): +1 production per Village, Town, +50% great general birth, +1 happiness from News Press, Broadcast Tower
Constitution (Social Contract*, medium upkeep): +100% great people birth, unhappiness for civs without Constitution, double statesman slots

* renamed Constitution tech

SOCIETY
Traditionalism (low upkeep)
Slavery (Masonry, low upkeep): +1 production for Quarry, +1 commerce for Plantation, can use slaves*
Manorialism (Calendar, low upkeep): +1 commerce for Farm, Watermill, +1 production for Pasture, +50% worker production**
Caste System (Contract, high upkeep): +1 food for Plantation, +50% improvement construction speed
Individualism (Civil Liberties, medium upkeep): +1 commerce for Village, Town
Totalitarianism (Psychology, no upkeep): +2 production per angry citizen, no war weariness, +25% military unit production
Egalitarianism (Civil Rights, high upkeep): +2 science per specialist, double artist, scientist, engineer slots

* I plan to rework slaves to also have them reflect ancient slavery, probably by having slaves created on city conquest
** Currently thinking about increasing worker cost, reducing starting workers and instead give the ability to construct a few improvements for free, and limit the number of workers per civ (e.g. one per city)

ECONOMY
Reciprocity (low upkeep)
Redistribution (Arithmetics, high upkeep): +25% food in capital, no foreign trade, double production for Granary
Merchant Trade (Currency, low upkeep): +1 trade route
Regulated Trade (Guilds, medium upkeep): -1 trade route, +200% trade income in capital, +1 commerce for Workshop, Plantation, double production for Customs House
Free Enterprise (Economics, low upkeep): +50% corporation commerce, +50% trade route commerce, double merchant slots
Central Planning (Macroeconomics, medium upkeep): +1 production per specialist, +1 production for Workshop, Lumbermill, double production for Factory, Coal Plant
Public Welfare (Labour Unions, high upkeep): +50% science in capital, -50% corporation unhappiness, +2 commerce for Windmill, Nature Reserve, Marine Reserve, can hurry building production with gold

RELIGION*
Animism (low upkeep)
Deification (Divination, medium upkeep): +25% wonder production, -1 state religion happiness, +1 happiness from Pagan Temple
Clergy (Priesthood, high upkeep): +25% building production with state religion
Monasticism (Ethics, low upkeep): +50% great people birth with state religion
Theocracy (Doctrine**, high upkeep): +2 experience with state religion, no non-state-religion spread, +1 unhappiness for non-state religions, double priest slots
Tolerance (Civil Liberties, low upkeep): +1 happiness for non-state religions, +50% culture in capital, -50% relations penalty for different religion
Secularism (Civil Rights, medium upkeep): no state religion, +10% science, double production for University, Hospital, Laboratory

* +1 unhappiness for non-state religions is now the default
* renamed Clergy tech

TERRITORY
City States* (low upkeep)
Conquest (Generalship, medium upkeep): +2 experience for land units, +100% number of cities upkeep
Tributaries (Feudalism, low upkeep): +2 commerce in capital per vassal city, +50% capture gold
Isolationism (Heritage, medium upkeep): +1 specialist in core cities, no foreign trade
Colonialism (Geography, high upkeep): +2 commerce in capital per happiness resource**, +4 experience for sea units
Nationhood (Nationalism, medium upkeep): can draft 2 units per turn, +2 production for Fort
Multilateralism (Globalism, low upkeep): +100% trade income with defensive pact partners, +25% trade income as production, +1 gold upkeep per military unit

* might rename this to Sovereignty
** not sure if that has synergy with colonialism, if not I'll make it a plain +2 commerce in capital per colony

Effects in cursive are not implemented yet.

This uses almost all effects currently existing in the XML (at least those that still apply to DoC, and that I would want to use). Unused, but imo interesting effects are:
- domestic great general rate modifier
- experience within borders modifier
- unit production with state religion
- (positive) state religion happiness
- food from trade routes
- extra wealth/culture/espionage from specialists
- extra commerce from specialists
- extra yield for orchard/fishing boats
- extra food/production/commerce for excess happiness
- extra food/commerce per angry population

 

[Imperator Knoedel]

Now why would Central Planning not have high upkeep?

Isolationism's effect is too weak. It's even weaker than Vanilla Mercantilism, and that was already only useful in some niche situations. Also, synergy (if you can call it that) with Redistribution, because they share the same negative effect.

Frankly, I don't believe any civic should ever completely remove distance maintenance costs. What good are Administrative Centers for such a civ?

For the same reason I don't like Totalitarianism completely removing all war weariness. Why would a totalitarian regime be the least likely form of government to build Jails?

 

[Leoreth]

My guiding principle for upkeep was mostly to keep upkeep lower if the civic is intended to be useful for large empires.

For Isolationism, I was thinking about an additional effect that removes the resource requirements for all units, not sure though if that may have unintended side effects. Should maybe be limited to Iron, Coal and Oil so you don't see Japan building elephants. Synergy with Redistribution is alright I guess.

Administrative Centers are a good point, the civic needs something else if that effect is reduced to -50% though.

Since Jails reduce maintenance now there is still plenty of reason

 

[Tigranes]

Constitution (Social Contract*, medium upkeep): +100% great people birth

Isn't it too much? Not 50, not 75, but full 100%? Even 50% makes a big difference, considering how much 1 GP can do. Republic with Monasticism would be a total killer, and I don't know any good examples in history reflecting that! How about Every 100 -->50, and 50% --> 25%?

 

[J422]

unhappiness for civs without Constitution,

Is it really more fitting than egalitarianism ?

- extra food/production/commerce for excess happiness

Could be nice for Individualism, which seems lacking for the moment.


About Isolationism, could it be possible to have foreign trade only in the capital ? That would be interesting for small civs.

 

[Leoreth]

Isn't it too much? Not 50, not 75, but full 100%? Even 50% makes a big difference, considering how much 1 GP can do. Republic with Monasticism would be a total killer, and I don't know any good examples in history reflecting that! How about Every 100 -->, and 50% --> 25%?

Well it's not actually double, because modifiers are additive instead of multiplicative. And the civic comes late in the game where GPs already require a lot of GPP.

Is it really more fitting than egalitarianism ?

Now that Egalitarianism/Individualism is your specialist vs. cottage binary, I don't want to favour one over the other like this.

Could be nice for Individualism, which seems lacking for the moment.

It's lacking in effects, but not utility. If it is too weak I'd rather bump the commerce to 2.

 

[Bautos42]

Should Citizenship and Republic not synergize better, as it seems a perfect fit for representing classical republics. But the different stance on cottage of the civics seems to discourage running them together, as Republic seems to be geared at a specialist economy and Citizenship clearly benefits a Cottage Economy.

 

[Leoreth]

That's a good point, Republic is intended for civs that have limited tiles for cottages but lots of food, which seems to apply to most historical examples. Looks like I need to rethink Citizenship.

 

[Imperator Knoedel]

That's a good point, Republic is intended for civs that have limited tiles for cottages but lots of food, which seems to apply to most historical examples. Looks like I need to rethink Citizenship.

Now wait a minute, why would a civ with lots of food want even more food from specialists? Wouldn't literally any other yield make more sense for them?

 

[Leoreth]

No, because you need a food surplus to run specialists in the first place. Republic cuts down the opportunity cost from -2 food to -1 food.

 

[Tigranes]

Does Animism come with No State religion tag? It looks weird when you can convert to Judaism as Babylon in F7 screen, while your F3 screen shows Animism...

 

[Leoreth]

Okay, another iteration, I decided to make the following changes (in bold, techs and upkeep unaffected):

Oligarchy: +3 happiness in largest cities, -50% city distance maintenance
State Party: +3 espionage per specialist, no number of cities maintenance (so Administrative Centers remain useful)

Citizenship: +1 happiness per specialist, double production for Aqueduct, Library, Jail, Forge, Market (happiness per specialist syncs better with Republic, and cancels some of the opportunity cost you forego by not choosing Monarchy; also the faster infrastructure is more thematically appropriate here than for Meritocracy, and more useful for an earlier civic)
Meritocracy: +50% science in capital, +1 food for Windmill, Watermill, +2 food for Rice Terrace*, +50% experience in borders (trying to make it more appealing for the prime historical example China, getting in the experience in borders thing, which is also fitting because it only encourages defensive play)

Regulated Trade: -1 trade route, +50% wealth in capital, +1 commerce from Workshop, Plantation, double production for Customs House (wealth is probably still better than trade route yield, might even switch against +50% commerce from Centralism, to weaken the latter a bit)
Public Welfare: +2 commerce per excess happiness, +2 commerce from Windmill, Nature Reserve, Marine Reserve, -50% corporation unhappiness, can hurry buildings with gold

* I had been thinking about adding a Rice Terrace improvement for rice on hills, that would allow to move around a few rice resources in East Asia to provide more food and free flat tiles overall.

Other historical examples I'd see for Meritocracy are probably Korea or even Turkey, not sure though if that setup makes it actually interesting for them.

Does Animism come with No State religion tag? It looks weird when you can convert to Judaism as Babylon in F7 screen, while your F3 screen shows Animism...

No, the initial civic is also supposed to represent unorganised forms of existing religions. I'm not entirely satisfied with the name for that reason.

 

[Imperator Knoedel]

Why would you want to add a new improvement just for rice on hills? I'm pretty sure one can build farms on hills if an appropriate resource is on it, just look at that Wheat in Turkey.

 

[Leoreth]

To direct additional effects toward that improvement, and to give it additional food that cancels the hill penalty. Food resources are hard to target with extra effects because Farms can be built everywhere. And one goal is to give China more food, just moving rice resources to hills without anything to balance it would have the opposite effect.

You could also give it unique art which is a nice plus.

 

[Tigranes]

No, the initial civic is also supposed to represent unorganised forms of existing religions. I'm not entirely satisfied with the name for that reason.

I am really trying to understand your logic here. Say, I run Deification. It represents Polytheistic state religion situation, like in Greece, Babylon or Egypt, correct? And say Judaism has spread to one of my 2 cities. Now I have a choice to convert to Judaism. The "-1 state religion happiness" means that I cannot benefit from Judaism being present, I only get benefit from Pagan temple. But if I don't convert to Judaism what will happen then? If we truly want Deification to represent Paganism -- then "No state religion" tag will simplify the situation: one cannot be Jewish and Pagan at the same time.

As far as Animism concerned -- unorganized practice of "existing religion" is best described by that religion present in the city, but State adopting no State religion! The very act of "converting" from initial "unconverted" situation describes a degree of organisation on state level. Wouldn't you agree?

 

[Bautos42]

If you add Rice Terrace, I'd name it simply terrace and also let it improve corn (and maybe wheat). That way, we can represent Incan Terrace Farming.

 

[Leoreth]

I am really trying to understand your logic here. Say, I run Deification. It represents Polytheistic state religion situation, like in Greece, Babylon or Egypt, correct? And say Judaism has spread to one of my 2 cities. Now I have a choice to convert to Judaism. The "-1 state religion happiness" means that I cannot benefit from Judaism being present, I only get benefit from Pagan temple. But if I don't convert to Judaism what will happen then? If we truly want Deification to represent Paganism -- then "No state religion" tag will simplify the situation: one cannot be Jewish and Pagan at the same time.

No, if that's what I wanted to do I had left the Pantheon thing in place. A polytheistic civ should be able to run a variety of civics, for example for Greek city states or republican Rome, Deification would be historically inaccurate, while it is fitting arguably for the later Macedonian Empire or Roman Empire. Likewise, Deification should be available to a number of civs that historically considered their rulers divine but also had what is a "proper" religion in the game: early Japan and China, as well as Hindu kingdoms in India and Indochina.

I tried to choose civic concepts and descriptions that do not pidgeon hole you as much into specific civics in certain circumstances, like the previous civics sometimes did.

The -1 state religion happiness is indeed meant to nudge you toward combining this with no state religion (selected), but you could still take this if you want the wonder construction bonus, which is not bound to any state religion. Don't give the Pagan Temple name too much thought, running deification itself does not make you a pagan state.

As far as wonder requirements go, I'll just introduce a "no state religion" requirement for those wonders, which is basically the same as Pantheon did before without forcing you to take one specific civic. I intend to return to this later an maybe add some flavour graphics for civ specific forms of paganism/polytheism.

As far as Animism concerned -- unorganized practice of "existing religion" is best described by that religion present in the city, but State adopting no State religion! The very act of "converting" from initial "unconverted" situation describes a degree of organisation on state level. Wouldn't you agree?

But that's exactly why the starting civic should not have the "no state religion" tag. Otherwise you would have to revolt twice if you wanted to convert to the first religion spreading to you: once to switch away from the initial civic, the other to actually convert. And you couldn't even convert before discovering the first new civic option!

I don't think having a state religion requires ay degree of organisation for the religion. In that case, it just means the ruler and probably local elite have largely converted to that religion, conferring the innate benefits that are tied to state religion (e.g. happiness, culture), but none of the further bonuses associated with civics you can get later.

If you add Rice Terrace, I'd name it simply terrace and also let it improve corn (and maybe wheat). That way, we can represent Incan Terrace Farming.

Incan terrace farming is happening on what is peak in the RFC map, and we have the Incan UP to represent that, imo.

 

[Just an idea]

Which historical civilizations Conquest civic is meant to represent? I would think it would represent likes of Romans, Mongols and maybe Vikings. However problem with this civic is that it gives you penalties for expanding.

I assume that increased number of cities upkeep is there so that it would be switched out of once expansion stops. Now it can be used by small non-aggressive civilization to boost its defences and that doesnt seem right. I think penalty to worker speed and cottage growth would be more fitting penalty because then because you would be required to take other civs stuff rather than building your own infrastructure.

 

[Leoreth]

Yeah, that's what it is meant to represent, and that's the intent behind the penalty. I don't think it really is too high because you can switch out of it once you're done building up your military, which I don't want to enable you to without penalties.

I considered no cottage growth, but that would make using this civic a no brainer in the late game where your cottages are already developed.

 

[borhap88]

IMHO Republic should come later than Oligarchy. Ancient form of Republic, like Roman Republic, or medieval ones too (Italian Maritime Republics, Northern Europe leagues, etc.), were more similar to Aristocracy (this one should be the correct name of Oligarchy) than modern democratic republics. The only example of early kind of Republic was the Greek one and it could be possible by the effects of Parthenon as well. So my proposal is to put Oligarchy before of Republic and to shift the specialist bonus to Oligarchy (if named Aristocracy, with the meaning of "rule of the best", it would be more appropriated) to this last one.