New Civics Discussion

[Leoreth]

I'm deliberately not adhering to the terminology used by Plato. Republic is intended to be representing all classical type republics, and the medieval republics they inspired or whose traditions grew from there, and does not imply democracy in the modern or Athenian sense, that is what the Democracy civic is there for. Likewise, we currently do not use Aristocracy as Plato and the ancient Greeks used it, as that form of government always was an ideal to begin with.

 

[borhap88]

Alright, I understood the meaning of Republic, but I still don't know what Oligarchy represent. Maybe I lost some post of previous discussion about that, but I'd like to know some historical example.

P.S. BTW, great work! I long for a game, but I currently cannot play.

 

[Leoreth]

Nothing beyond what I mentioned earlier, that Oligarchy is mostly a hold over from before I decided how to handle Republic vs. Democracy (initially they were one civic). In my mind it is more about power being held by a larger group instead of a single leader, but not necessarily a single leader. Right now leaders that have this as their favourite civic are Holy Roman and Polish. Oligarchy definitely has the highest overlap and could be removed, and only isn't because I couldn't find a better replacement.

Considering those two civs mentioned above, maybe it is better to rename the civic to Elective instead. That would also cover civs like the Mongols, and maybe something else I can't think of right now.

 

[Imperator Knoedel]

Just Elective, or Elective Rule or Elective Monarchy?

 

[Leoreth]

Simple is better imo, especially Elective Monarchy would force me to rename Monarchy to something unwieldy too.

I actually haven't thought about Mongols running this civic until the above post, that makes the civic less niche than I thought when I originally considered this. It might also give us more direction about its effects. The current Oligarchy effects (-50% city distance maintenance, +3 happiness in largest cities) are mostly leftovers of the last effects reshuffling, also a consequence of the ill-defined nature of the civic.

If we use Holy Rome, Poland and Mongols as canonical examples of the civic (any other historical examples?), what are the best effects for such a civic? City distance maintenance reduction certainly makes it interesting for the Mongols at least. Other ideas?

 

[Bautos42]

If we use Holy Rome, Poland and Mongols as canonical examples of the civic (any other historical examples?), what are the best effects for such a civic? City distance maintenance reduction certainly makes it interesting for the Mongols at least. Other ideas?

Early Rome and Mali would also be using this civic.

Edit: And the Mamluk Sultanate

 

[Imperator Knoedel]

Let's just leave those effects for now and see how it works out.

 

[ozqar]

Malaysia currently has a rotational monarchy system - not exactly elective, but not inherited either, which could be put into the "elective" classification for more ideas

 

[Malchar]

Here's a good way to conceptualize what the bonusues could be. Imagine what the Holy Roman Empire or Mongols were like before they adopted the civic, and then compare that to how they were once they had the civic. The civic bonus should correspond to the civ's relative improvement in capability. Also consider, what was the reason why they adopted the civic? Are they reacting to a specific problem?

For example, the Holy Roman Empire adopted an elective monarchy because it allowed the individual kingdoms to have a stronger collective international presence while still maintaining near complete autonomy with home rule. I haven't been paying attention to all the other civics lately, so I'm not sure how this would fit into the larger system, but, in a vacuum, the bonus could decrease distance maintenance or provide bonuses to warfare.

 

[Leoreth]

I agree conceptually, but in the game distance maintenance only really comes into play at larger distances than what the HRE or Poland historically covered. It's appropriate for the Mongol Empire, but also for a bunch of colonial empires where I don't really want to encourage that civic.

I would actually suggest a somewhat different approach than yours: giving the civic bonuses that are most useful for the circumstances of civs that historically ran the civic, and less useful for civs that didn't. This is for example the case for Caste System, it's prevalent in region that also happen to have many plantation resources, while it was not implemented in areas without them, that's why it has +1 food for plantations. Elective in fact is conspicuously only run by civs that were land focused and did not have far away overseas possessions.

 

[Malchar]

I would actually suggest a somewhat different approach than yours: giving the civic bonuses that are most useful for the circumstances of civs that historically ran the civic, and less useful for civs that didn't.

That's true too. My idea was that you could use it as a tool to help hone in on extremely specific bonuses given that you have many possibilities to choose from. It's usually easy to come up with a bunch of bonuses that could be beneficial.

Also, is there a functionality where you could decrease distance maintenance for all cities excluding colonies? That might work well for large land empires without giving an unfair boost to the colonial empires.

 

[Leoreth]

That's possible, but it feels contrived.

 

[Imperator Knoedel]

How about:

-90% distance maintenance; colonial upkeep is proprotional to number of cities instead of distance upkeep? Or perhaps... -5% distance from palace upkeep for every land tile in a city's BFC? Planetfall has a civic with a mechanic like that which decreases city upkeep for every xenofungus tile in a city's radius.

 

[Malchar]

That's possible, but it feels contrived.

In my view, colonial empires on new continents are differentiated from sprawling land empires. Colonial empires tend to have stark cultural differences compared to the naive civ, while the large land empires are able to stay more homogeneous because the native civ can migrate away across the land. This land migration was part of what caused all the "barbarians" to show up in ancient Rome, for example.

 

[Leoreth]

How about:

-90% distance maintenance; colonial upkeep is proprotional to number of cities instead of distance upkeep? Or perhaps... -5% distance from palace upkeep for every land tile in a city's BFC? Planetfall has a civic with a mechanic like that which decreases city upkeep for every xenofungus tile in a city's radius.

Also kind of complicated, although I like the idea.

In my view, colonial empires on new continents are differentiated from sprawling land empires. Colonial empires tend to have stark cultural differences compared to the naive civ, while the large land empires are able to stay more homogeneous because the native civ can migrate away across the land. This land migration was part of what caused all the "barbarians" to show up in ancient Rome, for example.

I agree with the intent, I just think the wording of the rule is rather convoluted.

 

[Imperator Knoedel]

Some more thoughts about Elective:
It should be good for civs that already are big, but not those that are currently expanding. It was mostly adopted by civs that were done with most of their conquests and now trying to keep them together. Maybe it should have a penalty for conquering or settling new cities but massively decrease city upkeep, so it's good for e.g. Mongolia when they are done with their conquests but not for Russia because they are constantly expanding, until the lategame when State Party should be more attractive.

 

[Ani Taneen]

SOCIETY
Traditionalism (low upkeep)
Slavery (Masonry, low upkeep): +1 production for Quarry, +1 commerce for Plantation, can use slaves*
Manorialism (Calendar, low upkeep): +1 commerce for Farm, Watermill, +1 production for Pasture, +50% worker production**
Caste System (Contract, high upkeep): +1 food for Plantation, +50% improvement construction speed
Individualism (Civil Liberties, medium upkeep): +1 commerce for Village, Town
Totalitarianism (Psychology, no upkeep): +2 production per angry citizen, no war weariness, +25% military unit production
Egalitarianism (Civil Rights, high upkeep): +2 science per specialist, double artist, scientist, engineer slots

* I plan to rework slaves to also have them reflect ancient slavery, probably by having slaves created on city conquest
** Currently thinking about increasing worker cost, reducing starting workers and instead give the ability to construct a few improvements for free, and limit the number of workers per civ (e.g. one per city)

Regarding slaves:
Slavery: Slaves are acquired when capturing a city, they can be bought and sold. Slaves can be used to add in exchange for
Manorialism: Slaves can't be acquired, nor bought, or sold. Existing slaves can build plantations
Caste System: Slaves can be bought and sold. Slaves can build plantations
Individualism: Slaves can be bought and sold. Slaves can build plantations. Each Slave Plantation produces +2
Totalitarianism: Slaves can't be acquired, nor bought, or sold. Existing slaves can build plantations
Egalitarianism: Slaves can't be acquired, nor bought, or sold. Existing slaves can be converted into workers (maybe at a cost). All slave plantations are converted into plantations?

 

[LackingGravitas]

Could military units reduce unhappiness rather than increase happiness?
Generally ppl aren't thrilled with a military presence...just maybe less likely to riot