New Hotfix Version (12-15)

[Infixo]

Anyway. I just ask one thing pls just one thing.
What files I have to edit to come back exactly like it was before ? (10/30/60/100...)

Is there a setting for that at all? I tried to find it, but I don't see any.

 

[CrabHelmet]

Just intuitively, having an otherwise identical trade route decrease in value because you built a road for it to operate on is all sorts of wrong.

 

[CrazyG]

Ok lets say I'm in a situation that I want to trade with a nearby city state (for one of various possible reasons) When I do anything that increases trade route range, it lowers the yields.

Also, I reach situations where my land trade route range is already long enough to trade with anything on my continent, so when it gets increased all that happens is I lose yields. Also I have this odd situation where I earn dramatically more by sending the trade route from my corner cities, instead of strong cities (like before)

I'm not convinced about this change conceptually. The cap of one route per city was a good addition that addressed a balance issue, what exactly is this fixing?

 

[Infixo]

Just intuitively, having an otherwise identical trade route decrease in value because you built a road for it to operate on is all sorts of wrong.

This change doesn’t happen immediately. Once you start a route, the yields should stay the same untils the route expires.
So, mid-game a 25 turns route means 100+ years have passed. I can imagine that trading conditions would have changed after that time. This actual destinations could be less attractive in relative terms, because new destionations are available.

 

[Gazebo]

Hey thanks for the work.

Is there any chance you could make some of these updates betas since it is not possible to play a whole game before the next update currently.

Thanks.

Every update is a beta, bud. Welcome to my QA team.

As a new VP player, particularly one who can't play often so takes two weeks plus to finish a game, I would love to see a "supported" version from time to time. One that gets bug fixes applied but no changes to rules/mechanics. Every release thread seems to be full of issues where such changes appear to have possibly had a detrimental affect on the game. I see that some important bugs result in hot fixes, but to get fixes for lesser problems seems to involve taking on a new version with development changes as well.

Maybe that's against the spirit of this community but it does make it difficult for new players to find a good place to start.

Don’t update, then. As I say below, we’re a small team and we do what we can, when we can. This isn’t a professional outfit.

I think if Gazebo can spare the time & effort, putting out, every once in a while, a version with just bugfixes and no new changes would be great.

That’a every update. I get but a few hours a week to work on this now, I do what I can. If you guys want to bankroll me I’ll quit my job.

I was referring to your notes on changes:

1. I don't consider my cities as 'lucrative destination', also how is it 'gamey' to send many internal routes to one of my cities? I thought we were talking about exploiting CSs and big foreign cities.
2. Same - how will this broaden spectrum of routes - idk. Internal routes are not blocked, so I still can send all my routes to 1 destination, just with lower yields.
3. There is no information on proximity malus for internal routes (as a matter of fact, there is no tooltip at all). You've added Distance info, but no info how this influences yields is given.

- - - - - - -
On a side note, re: international TRs. Basic game mechanic is to value different resources (+0.5 / +1 G) plus special buildings give some singular yields (market, east india, etc.) This can give you 5-10 gold which is fine. But then mechanisms like cultural influence, open borders, influence over CSs, etc. boost this, adding much more than the base and making it really OP. Maybe it would be better to nerf those thus leaving value to buildings, resources, etc. things that really should affect trade (plus "blocked" destinations).

I was traveling yesterday (with a toddler, multiple airports, you get the idea) and COMPLETELY misread the post. I kept reading internal as international and was like ‘uhh, yeah, that’s intended, why does he keep mentioning this?’ No, internal routes are supposed to be excluded, not sure why they are getting reduced (that’s why they don’t have a tooltip, I didn’t make one for them. I’m out of town for a bit on holiday unfortunately, so it’ll have to remain until then. As a stopgap you could bump the base yield values up a bit. I forget where they’re located in the CBO but the values are adjustable.

Just intuitively, having an otherwise identical trade route decrease in value because you built a road for it to operate on is all sorts of wrong.

See above.

G

 

[psparky]

I think if Gazebo can spare the time & effort, putting out, every once in a while, a version with just bugfixes and no new changes would be great.

No particular reason why it has to be Gazebo...

But I meant that the "supported version" would be updated with any bug fixes that are applied to the main development that also affect it. I wonder, do all bug fixes have an entry on the github bug reports page?

Edit: Hadn't seem G's post above

 

[Infixo]

Also, I reach situations where my land trade route range is already long enough to trade with anything on my continent, so when it gets increased all that happens is I lose yields. Also I have this odd situation where I earn dramatically more by sending the trade route from my corner cities, instead of strong cities (like before)?

I did point out earlier that once that theoretic maximum distance will become huge, like me, then most of TRs will be worthless. Probably only few longest ones will still have reasonable yields. I proposed to limit the malus, like max -75% or maybe even -50%, so even when the entire map is available, most of destinations would still be any good to trade with.

 

[Infixo]

I was traveling yesterday (with a toddler, multiple airports, you get the idea) and COMPLETELY misread the post. I kept reading internal as international and was like ‘uhh, yeah, that’s intended, why does he keep mentioning this?’ No, internal routes are supposed to be excluded, not sure why they are getting reduced (that’s why they don’t have a tooltip, I didn’t make one for them.
G

Ok, so it is confirmed that it is a bug then. No need to bother while on vacation, thou. Will wait for you to fix until you return

Edit. Also, if anyone wants to play without distance malus, there is an option in one of sqls to switch it off.

 

[ElliotS]

Hey thanks for the work.

Is there any chance you could make some of these updates betas since it is not possible to play a whole game before the next update currently.

Thanks.

There is literally no mechanism to force you to change to a new version. Just play your game to completion. If you find a version you like, call it a stable version.

 

[Gazebo]

As a new VP player, particularly one who can't play often so takes two weeks plus to finish a game, I would love to see a "supported" version from time to time. One that gets bug fixes applied but no changes to rules/mechanics. Every release thread seems to be full of issues where such changes appear to have possibly had a detrimental affect on the game. I see that some important bugs result in hot fixes, but to get fixes for lesser problems seems to involve taking on a new version with development changes as well.

Maybe that's against the spirit of this community but it does make it difficult for new players to find a good place to start.

It’s just me, man. No one else posts the installers, because I is me!

G

 

[Gazebo]

Ok lets say I'm in a situation that I want to trade with a nearby city state (for one of various possible reasons) When I do anything that increases trade route range, it lowers the yields.

Also, I reach situations where my land trade route range is already long enough to trade with anything on my continent, so when it gets increased all that happens is I lose yields. Also I have this odd situation where I earn dramatically more by sending the trade route from my corner cities, instead of strong cities (like before)

I'm not convinced about this change conceptually. The cap of one route per city was a good addition that addressed a balance issue, what exactly is this fixing?

The ultimate goal here was yield deflation for trade routes. AI games showed that civs who could keep more TRs active at one time were doing substantially better (more than they should be). But I didn’t want to flat drop the values, I felt that it’d be more interesting to have the deflation be a dynamic part of TR selection.

I did point out earlier that once that theoretic maximum distance will become huge, like me, then most of TRs will be worthless. Probably only few longest ones will still have reasonable yields. I proposed to limit the malus, like max -75% or maybe even -50%, so even when the entire map is available, most of destinations would still be any good to trade with.

75% is the max drop as of the latest version. That was a quirk I dealt with.

G

 

[Gazebo]

Ok, so it is confirmed that it is a bug then. No need to bother while on vacation, thou. Will wait for you to fix until you return

Edit. Also, if anyone wants to play without distance malus, there is an option in one of sqls to switch it off.

Good point, there is a value in the CBO you can turn off to remove the scaling entirely. If someone with access to the files can post it the value is where all the other CustomModOptions are set in the CBO. Happy hunting.

G

 

[Infixo]

75% is the max drop as of the latest version. That was a quirk I dealt with.
G

Ooookey... so that’s why I didn’t see any -90% maluses any more. Cool.

 

[Asterix Rage]

Is there a setting for that at all? I tried to find it, but I don't see any.

I tried as well. With WinMerge, all the difference between 12-06 and 12-13 when "Experience required for leveling units now scales with gamespeed" was introduced. I found nothing relevant.

Is there in CvGameCore_Expansion2.dll ?
Does resetting "EXPERIENCE_PER_LEVEL" in a very simple .xml can "restore" the good old XP gain I love ?

I well understand those who like the new rule but as a "Marathon fanatic" I'm desesperate

 

[Asterix Rage]

Good point, there is a value in the CBO you can turn off to remove the scaling entirely. If someone with access to the files can post it the value is where all the other CustomModOptions are set in the CBO. Happy hunting.

G

Seems to be in CommunityPatchDLLChanges.sql

UPDATE CustomModOptions
SET Value = '1'
WHERE Name = 'BALANCE_CORE_SCALING_TRADE_DISTANCE';

Just for help
I don't desagree with this new distance scaling TR

 

[Enginseer]

Shouldn't it be a good thing that trade routes are becoming weaker? It helps keep the balance in how commerce works. Commerce shouldn't be how you snowball, it should be a way to help you catch up by allowing you to trade with high-infrastructure civilizations yielding you multiple gold while civs who are ahead should be domestically trading rather than trading internationally to keep their prosperity within their borders.

 

[Gazebo]

I tried as well. With WinMerge, all the difference between 12-06 and 12-13 when "Experience required for leveling units now scales with gamespeed" was introduced. I found nothing relevant.

Is there in CvGameCore_Expansion2.dll ?
Does resetting "EXPERIENCE_PER_LEVEL" in a very simple .xml can "restore" the good old XP gain I love ?

I well understand those who like the new rule but as a "Marathon fanatic" I'm desesperate

There is no setting for it, as it is an experiment. Step back to pre-change version (no truly critical bug fixes since the change).

 

[Gothic_Empire]

If you guys want to bankroll me I’ll quit my job.

I'd be happy as pie to support your modding on Patreon or Kickstarter Drip or something. You've easily put hundreds of thousands of dollars of labor into what is a professional, polished product. The internal trade routes bug is, like, nothing compared to some of the G&K stuff the civ community put up with for years. It reads like a design decision, honestly. I'm really, really glad it wasn't, because it makes my tradition meta hard.

 

[LukaSlovenia29]

I'm sure if you'll ever start a Gofund me that many people here will contribute. I certainly would. Heck, a part of me hopes that an upstart gaming company will snag you to create a true rival to Civilization games, because then 1.) we'd have a VP level of game on steroids and 2.) Civilization games would be better as well due to competition.

 

[tu_79]

I'm loving how trade routes work now. But I have to agree that internal routes seems counter intuitive. If a city is sending help to another one (food or hammers), then it makes sense that the faster they can get there the more help arrives to destination. With international trade routes, I understand that goods from afar are more valued, culture from afar is more interesting. But internal trade routes should be the opposite, they should give more yields the closer they are.

About stable releases, you know sometimes there is an 'experimental' release that potentially breaks balance. Last experimental one was that of december the first (Ai handicap scaling curve is changed). So unless you want to contribute at finding proper balancing with the new handicap methods, you are better playing the latter releases of november. There are a few bugs, but nothing game breaking.

I've already suggested to highlight the last least experimental release, so we can recommend it for people not wanting to try untested changes.