New Hotfix Version (12-15)

[Infixo]

What? No. That sounds too complicated.

I haven't written it yet... Aren't you the one that always say "test it before complaining"?

 

[CrabHelmet]

I'm not accusing you of secrets, I'm just really puzzled. The log doesn't show anything for me, but the AI is still achieving something I can't explain with my knowledge of the existing bonuses. You obviously know the code inside-out, so I was hoping you could explain where the AI is getting all this Culture from, because I just don't know. I looked in Difficulty Mod.xml, and it says there for HANDICAP_DEITY that the Deity AI policy cost is still 100, which I assume means Policies cost the same for the AI as for the player. But the AI gets two Policies long before I can get one, so there's, what, about 100 culture coming out of nowhere I can't account for. I was hoping you could explain to me what it was as I am not great at 'reading' code.

 

[ElliotS]

Let me say it slower. Every. Trigger. Is. In. The. Log. There’s no secrets here.

G

His point is that the AI can get to 2 policies on turn 11. That's over 10 culture per turn. The AI doesn't get a discount on policies, and shouldn't have any handicap triggers. Where are they getting all that culture? Just ruins and city state meetings shouldn't be enough to get there. (If it is that's a whole nother problem.)

 

[CrabHelmet]

For reference, I get 18 Culture from the early-game Culture Ruins, so they'd have to get 5 Culture Ruins inside 11 turns, which is enormously unlikely and so I don't think that's the culprit. Also, this applies to almost every AI within the first 15 turns, and there aren't that many Ruins. So yeah, it's not Ruins doing it.

 

[Funak]

His point is that the AI can get to 2 policies on turn 11. That's over 10 culture per turn. The AI doesn't get a discount on policies, and shouldn't have any handicap triggers. Where are they getting all that culture? Just ruins and city state meetings shouldn't be enough to get there. (If it is that's a whole nother problem.)

For reference, I get 18 Culture from the early-game Culture Ruins, so they'd have to get 5 Culture Ruins inside 11 turns, which is enormously unlikely and so I don't think that's the culprit. Also, this applies to almost every AI within the first 15 turns, and there aren't that many Ruins. So yeah, it's not Ruins doing it.

If every trigger is in the log, why aren't you reading the log instead of repeating the same question here? I mean you're the ones with the log, not G, what are you expecting him to do?

 

[CrabHelmet]

I already said that there is nothing in the log in one of my earlier posts. That's the mystery. The AI are getting abut 100 Culture from a source I can't explain. If it was in the logs, I wouldn't be asking. :/

This is super easily replicable. Any of you can do it yourself. Start a Deity Pangaea game, restart if you don't meet the AI within the first 6 turns. If you do meet them in the first 6 turns, observe them very closely from that point on. You'll notice that they often go through a tech per turn and add two policies in almost no time at all. However, the log says no reward was awarded. I can't explain that. The log can't explain that. That's why I'm raising it for this thread. Where is this coming from?

 

[notque]

The AI on Deity starts with yields doesn't it? Doesn't that explain it?

Edit: looking over it again, I think I'm wrong. sorry.

 

[CrabHelmet]

My impression was that it did not. If it does, that needs to be adjusted immediately.

EDIT: Yeah, I didn't think so @notque. That's why this is so puzzling.

My only theory is that settling the initial city is rewarding the handicap (incorrectly), but is not being recorded in the log (correctly). But @Gazebo thinks otherwise, and he know much more than I do. So I have no other theories. It is a mystery.

 

[Gamewizard]

I already said that there is nothing in the log in one of my earlier posts. That's the mystery. The AI are getting abut 100 Culture from a source I can't explain. If it was in the logs, I wouldn't be asking. :/

This is super easily replicable. Any of you can do it yourself. Start a Deity Pangaea game, restart if you don't meet the AI within the first 6 turns. If you do meet them in the first 6 turns, observe them very closely from that point on. You'll notice that they often go through a tech per turn and add two policies in almost no time at all. However, the log says no reward was awarded. I can't explain that. The log can't explain that. That's why I'm raising it for this thread. Where is this coming from?

A tech per turn plus Progress' culture from teching would give a good amount of culture, no?

 

[Moi Magnus]

His point is that the AI can get to 2 policies on turn 11. That's over 10 culture per turn. The AI doesn't get a discount on policies, and shouldn't have any handicap triggers. Where are they getting all that culture? Just ruins and city state meetings shouldn't be enough to get there. (If it is that's a whole nother problem.)

I already said that there is nothing in the log in one of my earlier posts. That's the mystery. The AI are getting abut 100 Culture from a source I can't explain. If it was in the logs, I wouldn't be asking. :/

This is super easily replicable. Any of you can do it yourself. Start a Deity Pangaea game, restart if you don't meet the AI within the first 6 turns. If you do meet them in the first 6 turns, observe them very closely from that point on. You'll notice that they often go through a tech per turn and add two policies in almost no time at all. However, the log says no reward was awarded. I can't explain that. The log can't explain that. That's why I'm raising it for this thread. Where is this coming from?

The AI on Deity starts with yields doesn't it? Doesn't that explain it?

Edit: looking over it again, I think I'm wrong. sorry.

I've just checked with InGameEditor (Default settings, Deity, Standard speed, 12/15 version).
The AI has 42 culture per new city, including the first one. (It is a fact, reproducible, at least on my conputer).
=> Since the first policy is 50 culture, the AI mostly start with a free social policy at Deity level.

@Gazebo I thought you said that the first city was no longer supposed to give bonuses. Is it a bug, or just me reading too quiclky one of your post ?

 

[CrabHelmet]

A tech per turn plus Progress' culture from teching would give a good amount of culture, no?

a) this happens to the AI regardless of whether they take Progress, Tradition, or Authority. Progress does exacerbate it (see my Greece), but it's not the cause, and b) even if it was Progress, the AI would still need at least 50 Culture to reach the Progress opener inside 6 turns, which is still not achievable without an unexplained bonus.#

EDIT: Aha, I knew it! Thank you so much @Moi Magnus, I thought I was going mad!

So they're getting 42 Culture to start, hitting their first policy on turn 3, and therefore unlocking even more Culture through having that open. I'm guessing if they're getting the 42 Culture, they're also getting the 42 Science and 42 Production, which is how they're reaching Shrines so fast and teching so fast. I thought so all along!

 

[Moi Magnus]

I'm guessing if they're getting the 42 Culture, they're also getting the 42 Science and 42 Production, which is how they're reaching Shrines so fast and teching so fast. I thought so all along!

I've checked : they have 42 culture, 42 gold, 42 food, and 42 culture (and probably 42 science, but I've forgot to check) in their capital during turn 1.

 

[CrabHelmet]

Yep. So they're insta-building Shrines, which is why humans can't get Pantheons; and hitting their first Policy almost immediately, leading to a Culture snowball. For Progress Civs, it's especially awful because the bonus food means the AI is getting tons of POPs, getting extra Science for them all, turning into even more Culture. Definitely something @Gazebo needs to be aware of.

 

[Infixo]

I've checked : they have 42 culture, 42 gold, 42 food, and 42 culture (and probably 42 science, but I've forgot to check) in their capital during turn 1.

That strangely corresponds with the current formula. Since iEra=1, then 7*(1*1*1+1*1+4)=42...

 

[Infixo]

Ok, guys. Something weird is going on. This is my log. Just a moment ago.
Morocco, 0, CBP AI DIFFICULTY BONUS FROM CITY FOUNDING: Received Handicap Bonus (36 in Yields).
Songhai, 0, CBP AI DIFFICULTY BONUS FROM CITY FOUNDING: Received Handicap Bonus (36 in Yields).
The Zulus, 0, CBP AI DIFFICULTY BONUS FROM CITY FOUNDING: Received Handicap Bonus (36 in Yields).
Indonesia, 0, CBP AI DIFFICULTY BONUS FROM CITY FOUNDING: Received Handicap Bonus (36 in Yields).
Venice, 0, CBP AI DIFFICULTY BONUS FROM CITY FOUNDING: Received Handicap Bonus (36 in Yields).
Note: I changed ABC, so that is why is not 42.
So, they do get bonus and it is in the log.

Edit. And it is not Difficulty-related. On Emperor:
India, 0, CBP AI DIFFICULTY BONUS FROM CITY FOUNDING: Received Handicap Bonus (26 in Yields).
Brazil, 0, CBP AI DIFFICULTY BONUS FROM CITY FOUNDING: Received Handicap Bonus (26 in Yields).
Indonesia, 0, CBP AI DIFFICULTY BONUS FROM CITY FOUNDING: Received Handicap Bonus (26 in Yields).
The Huns, 0, CBP AI DIFFICULTY BONUS FROM CITY FOUNDING: Received Handicap Bonus (26 in Yields).
Greece, 0, CBP AI DIFFICULTY BONUS FROM CITY FOUNDING: Received Handicap Bonus (26 in Yields).

 

[Workerspam]

I've just checked with InGameEditor

Subscribe to InGame Editor from Steam and enable logs. Sounds like good homework assignments for all of us interested in helping out.

 

[Infixo]

@Gazebo It seems that the bonus is given when the 1st city is not yet recognized by the game as the capital. I wrote few posts ago that the only possibility is when isCapital() returns 0.

 

[ElliotS]

Quick strawpoll in light of the fact that all yields are treated even, but you need 3x more science than culture per era:

Please vote.

 

[Animorganimate]

@Gazebo It seems that the bonus is given when the 1st city is not yet recognized by the game as the capital. I wrote few posts ago that the only possibility is when isCapital() returns 0.

So does that mean I shouldn't play this version until this bug gets worked out, since the A.I. will continue to snowball and there's no way I'll be able to compete?

 

[tu_79]

Quick strawpoll in light of the fact that all yields are treated even, but you need 3x more science than culture per era:

Please vote.

Why only culture needs to be different? I'd say it's not the same to be gifted 42 science than 42 food, or 42 golden ages. In fact, I find troublesome that AI has so much food, their population is so high that most useless pantheons and religious beliefs are suddenly powerful. Grant the AI science, gold and half the culture, and let AI use this advantage. Because those are instant yields, maybe they don't interfere with goddess of commerce or goddess of science.